How do you handle it when a patient asks you to pray with them? I do not have the same belief system as my patients (I live in the Bible Belt) and when asked to participate I have always tried to skirt the issue by standing silently/respectfully/supportivley while they did the praying. Recently, I was asked to do the actual convocation/prayer. I was speechless. The patent assumed I was Christian. Everyone around here is, it is a pretty safe guess, lol. I am an atheist, but I largely keep that to myself. I told him I wasn't comfortable but that I would stay with him while he prayed. He got very angry and started accussing me of being a Muslim (!?!?!) and a terrorist (?!?!?!).
At that point, I just had to leave the room, b/c how do you respond to that?
He was VERY upset, VERY hostile to me after that, and complained about me all the next day. They had him transferred to med-surg even though he wasn't really ready b/c if he stayed in the unit I'd have been his nurse again (we only HAVE one nurse in the 4 bed CCU) and the charge nurse decided that was a recipie for disastor.
I have felt uneasy about it since then. He didn't get the nursing care he should have because I handled it poorly. However, I don't know what else I could have done. I don't think being dishonest is the answer. Prayer does not offend me, though I'm acutely aware that my atheism would offend many. :shrug: I am very happy to be respectfully present. I am not going to fake pray though, I thnk that is very innapporpriate for a number of reasons.
Any suggestions on how I could do better next time?
I also am not christian and when I have encountered someone asking me to do the honors, I have always demurred saying that I would find a chaplain as they are much more qualified than myself to talk with god. The patients usually laugh at me when I say it in this manner. So, I have not only kept from deluding them into thinking that I am christian, but I have provided a brief moment of levity.
Angus, I don't disagree, which is why I have always been OK with providing a hand to hold along with respectful silence when my patients engage in prayer. However, being asked to actually do the praying threw me for a loop. I wouldn't know what to say. I'd no more know "how" to pray than I would know how to waterski.
Secondly, even if I could manage it (I cannot begin to fathom what one might say in prayer) it seems highly dissrespectful to people of faith to have some poser "fake it." It seems on par to me to wearing blackface. Innappropriate at best, probably downright offensive to many. I wouldn't wear a hijab either. I don't know, it just doesn't seem like the right thing to do. It is inherently dishonest. We atheists are not ammoral ya know.
I find atheist are very moral.
You have an excellent point, if you do not know how to pray or what to say.
For future reference (hopefully this is the first and last time this happens to you) (hug) you might try something very generic. Something like, "Please, bless (insert name) with healing and keep him (her) safe from harm." If they insist.
Works pretty well for most religions. If they ask for more tell them you are not comfortable praying out loud but you will keep them in your thoughts.Then offer to get the chaplain.
By definition atheist means you do not believe there is a god. If there is no god then praying is neither effective nor harmful. We often do things for our patients such as a doctor writing for unnecessary yet harmless herbals while a pt is hospitalized because a pt wants them. We allow religious amulets to remain in place etc. (yes I am well aware not all herbals are harmless or ineffective)
It does not indicate that we agree these things have more than a placebo effect. Sometimes that location of the amulet may make care a bit more difficult but we do not remove it without permission.
Agnus, I don't believe this is a valid comparison. Working around an amulet is passive. It isn't forcing the nurse to violate her own beliefs and actively verbalize and from her perception, lie. Forcing a nurse to pray when she isn't comfortable is actively forcing a nurse to violate his or her own beliefs. Just because you don't see a conflict - doesn't mean the atheist nurse doesn't feel one. I see this as a boundary violation. You as a Christian telling me or the OP that it isn't harmful to pray a Christian prayer is telling me how to practice my spirituality (in my case Agnosticism) or to the OP, atheism. That is a boundary violation, just as I won't tell a Christian to buck up and pray to Allah with a Muslim patient, because any conflict is just from her perception.
It does not matter what I believe in terms of spirituality. I am not the one being effected by prayer or lack of it. Having a pt feel he is cared for by a "heathen", "non believer" or however else they choose to define it can be counter productive on a psychological level. Some people believe the prayers of others is more effective than their own. If it works fine. It may be just a placebo effect but no harm.
I fail to see how this would be an ethical issue if you do not believe in a god.
What needs to be recognized here is that the atheist nurse's beliefs are just as dear to him or her as the religious nurse's. It is improper for a religious nurse to tell an atheist nurse that her feelings don't matter, buck up, and start acting. It is a boundary violation. Also, I see little difference between catering to a patient calling a nurse racial slurs and and validating a patient's rant about his or her nurse being a "heathen" as you referenced above. Both go beyond providing patient care (including meeting spiritual needs) under the nursing process and are discriminatory while validating bigotry.
You have an excellent point, if you do not know how to pray or what to say.
For future reference (hopefully this is the first and last time this happens to you) (hug) you might try something very generic. Something like, "Please, bless (insert name) with healing and keep him (her) safe from harm." If they insist.
Works pretty well for most religions. If they ask for more tell them you are not comfortable praying out loud but you will keep them in your thoughts.Then offer to get the chaplain.
Thank you, Agnus. This sounds reasonable. I didn't see this entry when I posted my last prior post.
Thank you all for the respectful discussion and helpful posts. I feel much reassured and possibly bolstered enough to help my patients more with their spiritual needs in the future.
Agnus, I don't believe this is a valid comparison. Working around an amulet is passive. It isn't forcing the nurse to violate her own beliefs and actively verbalize and from her perception, lie. Forcing a nurse to pray when she isn't comfortable is actively forcing a nurse to violate his or her own beliefs. Just because you don't see a conflict - doesn't mean the atheist nurse doesn't feel one. I see this as a boundary violation. You as a Christian telling me or the OP that it isn't harmful to pray a Christian prayer is telling me how to practice my spirituality (in my case Agnosticism) or to the OP, atheism. That is a boundary violation, just as I won't tell a Christian to buck up and pray to Allah with a Muslim patient, because any conflict is just from her perception.
What needs to be recognized here is that the atheist nurse's beliefs are just as dear to him or her as the religious nurse's. It is improper for a religious nurse to tell an atheist nurse that her feelings don't matter, buck up, and start acting. It is a boundary violation. Also, I see little difference between catering to a patient calling a nurse racial slurs and and validating a patient's rant about his or her nurse being a "heathen" as you referenced above. Both go beyond providing patient care (including meeting spiritual needs) under the nursing process and are discriminatory while validating bigotry.
Whoa your are makeing a pretty big leap by assuming I am Christian. I would more closely be defined as secular humanist. I belong to a Unitarian Universalsists Church in which we have many many confirmed atheist as our members. We also have agnostics, ( as well as Muslim, Jew Christian, Budddhist and pagan) in our congregation.
There is a big difference between agnostic and atheism.
I have no care as to what your beliefs are. I do care in that they are important to you and deserve respect. That does not preclude discussion or expression of individual opinion. I spent my life studying religion in depth and continue to do so. So that I will better understand.
I don't think I told anyone to buck up or that their feelings don't matter. I made reference only to myself in that vein. As for telling someone they should pray again I made a suggestion of what he might consider or try never a statement that he should. I am acutely aware of the sensitive nature of this topic to do anything like that.
Only offered a suggested pray IF and only if he wanted to use it. That is all. Some of us might consider praying with someone of a religion that we do not know if we new how. I do understand that some of us would not under any circumstance and that is ok too. Where do you get off saying I would force a nurse to pray?
If cracks me up to see what a hot button religious issues can be for some who profess that they don't believe or seriously doubt there is a god. If there is no god it does not matter. If it matters enough to be a hot button then there is more going on than meets the eye.
Peace.
(lets see the last time I said "peace" to someone on this board during a discussion on a religious issue on this board I was accused of pandering just can not win for anything:uhoh3:)
By the way heathen is not a slur it refers to the ancient religions practiced before the introduction of Christianity in the heath land of what we now know as Great Britian. Some Christians refer to non believes of the Christian faith as heathen only to indicate they are not Christian. IF being called a non Christian is offensive to you then well...
Whoa your are makeing a pretty big leap by assuming I am Christian. I would more closely be defined as secular humanist. I belong to a Unitarian Universalsists Church in which we have many many confirmed atheist as our members. We also have agnostics, ( as well as Muslim, Jew Christian, Budddhist and pagan) in our congregation.
There is a big difference between agnostic and atheism.
Agnus, we (you and I) had this same discussion about a year ago on our state-specific board. I must have incorrectly remembered you as a Christian from that discussion. That was an error of memory on my part. Sorry 'bout that.
The rest - I stand by what I said, although I appreciate you clarifying your remarks, and your first post makes more sense now, with some additional context.
The term heather is not a slur. It refers to the ancient religions practiced in the heath lands of what we today call Great Brittan. Some Christians today refer to non Christian as Heathen. If being called a non Christian is offensive to you well....
being sick sometimes brings out the very worst in us, try and forget this particular guy
but before a situation like this presents itself again you might ask a person in adjoining floor if they would be willing to come in and be with patient..this might allow you to keep your dignity and the patient would have a prayer partner
By the way heathen is not a slur it refers to the ancient religions practiced before the introduction of Christianity in the heath land of what we now know as Great Britian. Some Christians refer to non believes of the Christian faith as heathen only to indicate they are not Christian. IF being called a non Christian is offensive to you then well...
Catch you all on another tread.
I think this is a classic example of a word's meaning deviating from the original definition. It is not offensive to me to be called a "non-Christian" but it is offensive to be called a "heathen." One has a quite negative connotation, and the other does not. I think this is similar to the word "Negro." The meaning has changed from its original usage.
Agnus, I do appreciate you clarifying what you meant, and I genuinely appreciate what you've said.
tvccrn, ASN, RN
762 Posts
I also am not christian and when I have encountered someone asking me to do the honors, I have always demurred saying that I would find a chaplain as they are much more qualified than myself to talk with god. The patients usually laugh at me when I say it in this manner. So, I have not only kept from deluding them into thinking that I am christian, but I have provided a brief moment of levity.