Grounds for termination

chevyv, BSN, RN · Mar 13, 2009

She disrespected you in a very inappropriate place, where people live and you both just happen to work. It is unacceptable! No question about it. I would have to see the facilities policy, but I would fire her if policy allowed.

I worked as a cna for many years. I would never ever think of cussing out a nurse especially in front of residents. I wouldn't cuss anyone out. Poor anger management. Sounds like that cna may be ticking away and could blow at anytime.

I wouldn't be working with her either. She had better not be in any hall where I'm working. If she says anything to you that makes you feel threatened, do not take the bait, but get a restraining order pronto!

I hope you can find a better job that respects your safety!

Oh, don't feel the need to apologize over and over for a misunderstanding. Sounds ridiculous and like this person is trying to empower themselves using others. Very negative and sad. I wish you the best.

kstec, LPN · Mar 13, 2009

We as floor nurses are not allowed to write up anyone. If we had that type of authority, I would of sent her home that night. She is still employed there and her story is the same as mine, except due to her being so mad at me when written up she was allowed to go home the day of the supposed write up. Yes, I'm fearful she will retaliate, but I don't want to have to look for another job at this moment. I figure I'll just play it out and if something happens physically, 911 will be my new best friend and administration will be sorry they just didn't terminate her from the get go. Back to the original thread: She did this in front of two dementia patients, but my facility also has a rehab facility with perfectly coherent patients like you and I. What if she would of done it and had the patient go to administration? She got lucky on her part that the residents can't verify what she said. Well thanks for all the input. I'm glad that the majority of you agree with what I think should of happened. I guess with the nursing shortage all the way around it takes a lot to be fired d/t having noone to replace them.

pagandeva2000, LPN · Mar 13, 2009

While I certainly respect the responses of "write her up, send her home..." many times, facts are that these people remain in these positions and compromise the authority of the offended party. I am not sure, but I think I remember that kstec is an LPN (not that it means less-no one deserves to be cursed out); and (at least in my side of the woods), LPNs do not have the authority to send someone home independently; they have to report situations of insubordination to the nursing supervisors and DON. Even a charge RN would have to bump it up higher in order for an employee to be sent home in the majority of cases. When the supervisors do nothing, the vicious cycle continues. And, with the job market being the way that it is, it is easier said than done to up and leave if one resides in an area where jobs are just not there.

Believe me, I am not saying that these responses are wrong! She needs to be at least sent home with no pay for the day. I guess I come from a place of employment where aggressive behavior is rewarded more than stamped out, which add more fuel to the fire of a hostile work environment. Happens every day, unfortunately.

The situation has already happened and you apologized for what you perceived as your error in communication. There should be nothing else said by you to this person regarding this situation. Definitely keep your eye on the situation, write up future incidents and keep the powers that be abreast. And, of course, in the meantime, seek discretely for other options if you feel you are getting no respect or support from your superiors. Sorry to hear this happened.

pagandeva2000, LPN · Mar 13, 2009

We as floor nurses are not allowed to write up anyone. If we had that type of authority, I would of sent her home that night. She is still employed there and her story is the same as mine, except due to her being so mad at me when written up she was allowed to go home the day of the supposed write up. Yes, I'm fearful she will retaliate, but I don't want to have to look for another job at this moment. I figure I'll just play it out and if something happens physically, 911 will be my new best friend and administration will be sorry they just didn't terminate her from the get go. Back to the original thread: She did this in front of two dementia patients, but my facility also has a rehab facility with perfectly coherent patients like you and I. What if she would of done it and had the patient go to administration? She got lucky on her part that the residents can't verify what she said. Well thanks for all the input. I'm glad that the majority of you agree with what I think should of happened. I guess with the nursing shortage all the way around it takes a lot to be fired d/t having noone to replace them.

I suspected as much...that you were not allowed to. And, for sure, I would have sent her home with no pay...if I had the authority. This is yet, another story of how this field is so abusive and non-supportive of each other. I am upset for you. :down:

SuesquatchRN, BSN, RN · Mar 13, 2009

I once wrote someone up for blatant and public insubordination. I was told I'm too bossy. Um, I'm the boss?

Atheos · Mar 13, 2009

What did they do Sue?

I once told a boss that she was an orifice. Yeah, I shouldn't have. When she tried to write me up for insubordination I fought and won because that isn't insubordination....

Insubordination has actually been defined by the court system...

Insubordination - "A constant or continuing intentional refusal to obey a direct or implied order, reasonable in nature, and given by and with proper authority."

USA - Garvin v. Chambers

USA -Sims V.Board of Trustees, Holly Springs Municipal Separate School District

Canada -Sauders Industries v IWA

The only exception is if the employ contract specifically defines insubordination as something else.

Young v. Mississippi State Tax Commission

OF course, in my opinion swearing in front of a resident should be immediate dismissal. Whether swearing should be an immediate dismissal should be up to the company. I've had bosses where it was acceptable in certain instances to swear and some where I would never dream of doing so.

Swearing, disrespect and any other act does not qualify as insubordination unless specifically outlined in an employee handbook or policy.

rngolfer53 · Mar 13, 2009

I've been in a similar situation and nothing was done.
The management at your workplace is weak just like mine.
I can't believe they put you both back on the floor without having resolved this issue. That is a really uncomfortable situation and unfortunate for the patients.

I'm pretty new in nursing, but with decades of business experience. One thing I've noticed in health care and nursing in particular is that people are given management responsibilities w/o much if any supervisory experience or training. So, they are often at sea when difficult situations arise. Training would help in so many instances.

Most times, the level of hostility and insubordination the OP wrote about doesn't suddenly spring forth fully formed, like Pallas Athena from the head of Zeus. It likely grew out of what the CNA found she could get away with, and as other posters have aptly noted, you can bet all the employees will be watching what happens next.

Tough as it is to look for a new job, its easier to start early.

CoffeeRTC, BSN, RN · Mar 13, 2009

Over half of my facility would need to be fired. Sad Huh? The union would get them their job back tho. Again..sad.

Seems like some LTCs will let this go on just so that staffing is okay.

I think it is at least a right up with a final warning.

pagandeva2000, LPN · Mar 13, 2009

I'm pretty new in nursing, but with decades of business experience. One thing I've noticed in health care and nursing in particular is that people are given management responsibilities w/o much if any supervisory experience or training. So, they are often at sea when difficult situations arise. Training would help in so many instances.
Most times, the level of hostility and insubordination the OP wrote about doesn't suddenly spring forth fully formed, like Pallas Athena from the head of Zeus. It likely grew out of what the CNA found she could get away with, and as other posters have aptly noted, you can bet all the employees will be watching what happens next.
Tough as it is to look for a new job, its easier to start early.

You are so right! :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: This behavior is a symptom that has been festering for some time, I am sure. She witnessed and tried to see how far it would go-saw that it was okay and she went for it. People like this are either so intimidating to management that they are allowed to slide, favorite children or relatives to someone important who bullied the facility to hire their sorry bum relative. Either way, this leads to more stress and trouble for everyone else.

nurseforlife · Mar 13, 2009

Why can't you ask to be moved to another shift if uncomfortable with working with her. She is obviously not going to be terminated. Why are you so afraid of retaliation? What exactly are you afraid she's going to do to you?

kstec, LPN · Mar 13, 2009

The reason that I'm fearful is that she is known to be a CNA you don't mess with and is already walking on thin ice due to her attitude. When she was brought into my bosses office all she could do was demand to speak to me face to face and I guess her state of mind was so irrational that my boss said absolutely not. That is why I'm fearful. She's seems like someone who doesn't play by the rules which in turn makes me fearful of her setting me up at work, being a bully or whatever else. It is mutual that we do not work together per my bosses okay. But how sad, when the whole thing was over me asking her one to many times if she had so and so, and that if she did please let me know so I can come help her with the HS care and do my tx. whether it be a cream, oint, powder or dressing change. It's a lot easier doing it that way than asking her to go back to each room after she's done with them when we could of "killed two birds with one stone". But she took it as I was rushing her and riding her all night, which was not the case. I did not tell her to do anything. I asked her to tell me when and I would come in the room then. I even said if she wanted to she could turn on the light and I would come with my medications (oints, creams, drssgs, etc). Does that sound like I needed to be cussed at in front of two residents?

nurseforlife · Mar 13, 2009

No, it doesn't justify being cussed at. But, just take my advice and don't let her make you feel intimidated by her. All that does is feed into her atitude. My advice is to stand your ground. You shouldn't accept her behavior. I would have nipped her atitude in the butt. I always try to resolve things face to face first though. But that's just me. I don't take a lot of anything without speaking out. Stop apologizing to her please, you were just doing your job. Anyway, stay in nursing long enough and you grow "thick skin". :smokin: