Grounds for termination

firstyearstudent · Mar 13, 2009

Frankly, it sounds like you are just hurt and humiliated, so want her fired. Unless she has a history of flying off the handle or is not doing a good job or is repeatedly hostile toward you, you should just put it down to having a bad day.

pagandeva2000, LPN · Mar 13, 2009

Why can't you ask to be moved to another shift if uncomfortable with working with her. She is obviously not going to be terminated. Why are you so afraid of retaliation? What exactly are you afraid she's going to do to you?

I don't believe it is fair that her entire life should be placed upside down to cater to this woman. This is what is so unfair...I have seen things escalate to the point of violence and nothing being done about it. We have an LPN that works with us who is along those lines. She was first introduced into this system as an agency nurse, who was supposed to be a replacement for some of us who were offered a full time leave with pay to become either LPNs or RNs. Her total intent was to get hired to be afforded this same opportunity to become an RN for free.

Well, she got hired and became really close to a nursing administrator who caters to behaviors like this. Each time she was asked to do something, she would drop the name of this woman, report to this woman and the RNs would suddenly become harassed by the administrator. She got accepted into an RN program, graduated and has now passed the boards, but has not been hired as an RN yet. Upon returning to work, she has been asked by our charge nurse to float to other clinics. I knew the deal and asked to be crosstrained to get away from this girl. Sure enough, she started confronting this charge nurse, openly defying her, telling her what she is and is not going to do. She kicks doors in, screams, shouts, states to the charge nurse on several occasions "You don't know who you are messing with..., who do you think you are, who left you boss...I get my way because I am a princess and am favored", sending this woman to cry in a corner. What was the end result when she wrote this up in an email to the administrator? "Please, let's keep this quiet...she may not get her RN and I might lose the RN line". WHAT??? So...nothing has happened. The charge nurse's authority is now in jeopardy, everyone is intimidated from what I understand, and life goes on.

What about when people's tires are flattened, followed off the grounds, threatened, and nothing happens? There is plenty to fear, in my opinion, when behaviors are allowed to escalate to the point where it is no longer taken seriously and no disciplinary actions are followed up. It sends up a wrong message, and it happens too often in nursing.

Separating these two is only a temporary solution, because what about the poor other nurses that are stuck dealing with her? I am so disgusted by this, you have no idea!! I come to work with my game face on and while I am respectful, I pounce on the bullies at a moment's notice and am left alone. I have no problems because of this, but this is not what we come to work for. Some people do not have that sort of personality to do this. This may be what makes the OP so uncomfortable.

Kstec, I don't say these things to fuel your imagination with worse. I do think that you should seek another place to work if this cannot be solved. It is just that I have seen this so much in various locations that it makes one wonder how often do we have to run? For this to be a career to care for others, I find it leaves us out in the dust when it really counts.

pagandeva2000, LPN · Mar 13, 2009

Frankly, it sounds like you are just hurt and humiliated, so want her fired. Unless she has a history of flying off the handle or is not doing a good job or is repeatedly hostile toward you, you should just put it down to having a bad day.

But does anyone who is trying to do their job have to be hurt and humilated? While I understand your point, I don't think that many people can wrap their brain around diminishing this experience to 'a bad day'. Does this happen on Wall Street? In the business/corporate world? Not the same way it does in the world of nursing. This is what makes people run for the hills on the first thing smoking.

firstyearstudent · Mar 13, 2009

But does anyone who is trying to do their job have to be hurt and humilated? While I understand your point, I don't think that many people can wrap their brain around diminishing this experience to 'a bad day'. Does this happen on Wall Street? In the business/corporate world? Not the same way it does in the world of nursing. This is what makes people run for the hills on the first thing smoking.

We live in an imperfect world and work with fallible human beings. We should expect professionalism but realize that's not always what we'll get. This kind of thing goes on all the time in high-stress professions. I have friends who work in the movie industry and those folks are at each other's throats all day long. Not that I condone that kind of behavior or think it's acceptable. I just feel that someone shouldn't be terminated for freaking out at work one day. The threat of work-place violence is very real, but we can't use a feeling of being under threat or hurt to justify our own aggressive action. It's not okay to invade Iraq or to terminate a subordinate because they said something we didn't like and we felt disrespected. The proper way to deal with that is to defend ourselves rationally, without apology, and to make sure the offender knows from both the one who was offended and an impartial party (manager?) that the behavior was out of line and will not be tolerated in the future.

pagandeva2000, LPN · Mar 13, 2009

We live in an imperfect world and work with fallible human beings. We should expect professionalism but realize that's not always what we'll get. This kind of thing goes on all the time in high-stress professions. I have friends who work in the movie industry and those folks are at each other's throats all day long. Not that I condone that kind of behavior or think it's acceptable. I just feel that someone shouldn't be terminated for freaking out at work one day. The threat of work-place violence is very real, but we can't use a feeling of being under threat or hurt to justify our own aggressive action. It's not okay to invade Iraq or to terminate a subordinate because they said something we didn't like and we felt disrespected. The proper way to deal with that is to defend ourselves rationally, without apology, and to make sure the offender knows from both the one who was offended and an impartial party (manager?) that the behavior was out of line and will not be tolerated in the future.

I am not challenging or arguing your sensible approach. Your rationale is kind and gentle, greatly needed. I just believe this was not the first time for this person; I've seen it too often. And, to me, it is different when we have to collaborate to care for those who cannot care for themselves. In the other industries, it is paper, these are people. If I were a patient witnessing such behavior (especially an elderly one), I would be frightened, insecure about the care I would receive from such a person and would be more afraid to report it because I live there.

caliotter3 · Mar 13, 2009

I am not challenging or arguing your sensible approach. Your rationale is kind and gentle, greatly needed. I just believe this was not the first time for this person; I've seen it too often. And, to me, it is different when we have to collaborate to care for those who cannot care for themselves. In the other industries, it is paper, these are people. If I were a patient witnessing such behavior (especially an elderly one), I would be frightened, insecure about the care I would receive from such a person and would be more afraid to report it because I live there.

You make very good points. Am in total agreement with you.

nurseforlife · Mar 13, 2009

I worked with a bully nurse one day who yelled at me in front of the whole nursing station. In front of doctors, patients, and other nurses. I waited till she was alone in the staff room....shut the door, and said "I would like to speak to you right now" I told her that if she had something to say she should confront me right now in private. She was speachless, and didn't know what to do. She said "I have nothing to say to you" and walked out. She didn't talk to me for 3 days. But, her atitude was different after that, and seemed nicer. Her BARK WAS LOUDER THAN HER BITE.

pagandeva2000, LPN · Mar 13, 2009

I worked with a bully nurse one day who yelled at me in front of the whole nursing station. In front of doctors, patients, and other nurses. I waited till she was alone in the staff room....shut the door, and said "I would like to speak to you right now" I told her that if she had something to say she should confront me right now in private. She was speachless, and didn't know what to do. She said "I have nothing to say to you" and walked out. She didn't talk to me for 3 days. But, her atitude was different after that, and seemed nicer. Her BARK WAS LOUDER THAN HER BITE.

Oh, yeah...I have had a couple of those 'privates' myself. Scared the heck out of them. No one bothers me, though...:chuckle. But, I wish that this did not have to happen. Way to go nurseforlife!! :yeah:

Not_A_Hat_Person, RN · Mar 13, 2009

I was in a similar situation at my current job. The perpetrator was friends with the managers, so I knew going to them wouldn't do any good. Confronting him privately only added fuel to the fire.

rn1969 · Mar 13, 2009

Coming from another line of work, I've notice that the medical profession can be quite petty and also quite unprofessional Doctors yelling at nurses, nurses yelling at each other. In many other lines of business they would require you to attend angry management courses or terminate you on the spot.

Scrubby · Mar 13, 2009

The reason that I'm fearful is that she is known to be a CNA you don't mess with and is already walking on thin ice due to her attitude. When she was brought into my bosses office all she could do was demand to speak to me face to face and I guess her state of mind was so irrational that my boss said absolutely not. That is why I'm fearful. She's seems like someone who doesn't play by the rules which in turn makes me fearful of her setting me up at work, being a bully or whatever else. It is mutual that we do not work together per my bosses okay. But how sad, when the whole thing was over me asking her one to many times if she had so and so, and that if she did please let me know so I can come help her with the HS care and do my tx. whether it be a cream, oint, powder or dressing change. It's a lot easier doing it that way than asking her to go back to each room after she's done with them when we could of "killed two birds with one stone". But she took it as I was rushing her and riding her all night, which was not the case. I did not tell her to do anything. I asked her to tell me when and I would come in the room then. I even said if she wanted to she could turn on the light and I would come with my medications (oints, creams, drssgs, etc). Does that sound like I needed to be cussed at in front of two residents?

I'm going to be really blunt here, apologies in advance if I hurt your feelings but I want to be completely honest.

You seem way too nice. Not everyone acts and thinks the way you do, this CNA is aggressive and obviously can't behave professionally.

Nursing is a dog eat dog world. If you can't stick up for yourself then your going to be walked all over. By doctors, other nurses, those you are supervising.

I'm not saying you need to be nasty. But next time someone disrespects you, in front patients/other collegues, you need to stand up. You are the LPN, this is a CNA. You are supervising them. If someone starts swearing and acting in an unprofessional manner then as the person in a higher position you need to TELL them (do not ask them) to stop it immediately. If they don't stop then they are endangering patients and you threaten them with security. Call a Code Black on them and have them escorted off the building. Document everything, write an incident report.

How would you feel if you were a patient/resident and seeing this behaviour from those who are supposed to be caring for you? Quite frankly, I would be terrified.

And STOP APOLOGISING. She's walking all over you and your letting this happen. You need to toughen up, grow a pair and make HER to the apologising.

nurseforlife · Mar 13, 2009

I speak for myself, but right now I mostly work with Male nurses and orderlies in psychiatry. I have found it to be such a big difference than when working in a female dominated unit. It seems a lot less petty, less friction, less attitude. We actually have fun.