Graduate degrees as entry-level for other healthcare professions

Nurses General Nursing

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You all are probably aware that PT requires (or will soon require, can't recall) the masters degree for entry into practice. Pharmacists need the PharmD. Etc., etc. Did any of these other non-nursing professions have a lot of controversy over adopting these standards? Or any standards, for that matter. Nursing doesn't agree on what the standards should be, unless you consider the multiple points of entry a "standard".

The debates in nursing over proper entry-level have been going on and on for years. North Dakota (and Canada, yes?) has adopted the BSN as the entry-level. How did this come about? What did it take for the legislators to sit down and say, "this is how it's going to be, no ifs ands or buts"? How is nursing affected in these areas due to the BSN being required?

I know everyone is TIRED of this subject.....but you don't gain respect through years of education. I am an ADN student, and Iam also living in North Dakota. Although the laws have not changed, North Dakota DOES allow practice of ADRN's. And why not?? Because I have a few less theory credits, does that make me less of a nurse. I have met many LPN's (diploma AND associate's degree) who are amazing nurses. Don't judge by the degree behind my name. I will take the SAME RN BOARDS as a BSN.

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Specializes in Specializes in L/D, newborn, GYN, LTC, Dialysis.

EXACTLY Konni...the whole ADN versus BSN educational requirements issue is an OUTRAGE. When I think of the money I spent, the TIME in clinicals, going to school straight thru summer vacation for everyone else, staying up all night writing those endless careplans, reading 300-page reading assignments due the next day, the 125-question tests every other Monday.......not to mention all the pre-req course work I did, (actually a separate associate's degree!) the HOOPS I jumped thru for the instructors to make it---------- it makes me so angry to have to go back and do RN/BSN programs to "catch up".......it's a money-making thing w/the universities, not a matter of anyone trying to improve the overall plight and status of RN nursing. Let us at least recognize this------

and I agree, convert ADN programs to BSN with the little bit of tweaking it would take to do so. Make it possible for adult learners not in metropolitan areas to go to school and achieve a BSN in the ***first place*** and you would go a long way toward BSN-entry RN nursing!

And what about recognizing OTHER baccalaureate work that is related? What is wrong with holding an ADN when you already hold a BA, BS, or what-not and being given the respect and credit for the higher degree? I know some who returned to school with me who already held bachelor's or higher degrees, yet could not get to a BSN program near them. Yet, they went and got an ADN to become an RN---- w/o one iota of credit for their previous work, except those classes filled pre-req needs. Perhaps a fast-rack BSN program for these people at all nursing schools is needed, also. Those are few and far between.

The worst scenario for many of us (the one I am dealing with now), is returning to school, to get our BSN and having to literally backtrack some just do to it. It costs too DAMN much money and takes WAY too much TIME! Where is the CREDIT FOR WHAT I KNOW AS AN RN WITH EXPERIENCE????? And diploma grads face even bigger challenges getting THEIR BSN's......but it is the ONLY way they can become NP's, advanced practice nurses or clinical specialists...so they do it....but...... It is frustrating beyond words! This whole process needs to be streamlined in order to encourage all of us to meet this goal!

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And really...the ONLY difference between the diplomas and associate's is IV cert and speech where I live. Big deal!!

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Specializes in Everything except surgery.
Originally posted by Enright

I think you should need an ADN for your LPN and a BSN for the RN.

An ADN for LPN to do what??? Pass out pills?? Start an IV?? You have got to be kidding! If RN ADNs aren't considered educated enough why have ADN LPN??? Makes no sense to me at all! If you think the entry level to nursing should be a BSN..why have LPN??? I mean we are nurses...right???

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right now there is no tangible difference across the board between adn's diploma rn's, and bsn's in terms of what they can do and what they actually do in terms of function. we need better nursing education. evidence based practice, clinical time, and exposure to things like doing assessments and commom procedures, not more theories and dribble drabble. my adn program taught me to be a nurse and my bsn program taught me how to play "the game." in other words, i got the bsn back in 1990, because after getting the adn in 1987, i knew if i ever wanted to go on for higher ed. i'd need it or in case bsn became the standard, i'd be set. i also have to say, the cost of the adn was far better value for the $. in this day of mega student loans, i think you may see a lot of folks better able to afford the community college education, esp. people w/ kids or returning students. if you want the bsn to be the standard, then make it so that the bsn is in fact tangibly better, not just a slip of more embellished paper.

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Specializes in Med/Surg, Geriatrics.

For the pharmacists' part: here is a paper making the case for the PharmD:

PharmD

And here is a debate from pharmacists about it:What pharmacists think of the PharmD

I still can't figure out how they got past the naysayers and made it happen.

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Originally posted by Susy K

Renee, a general 4 year university degree is not all about prepping one to pass a test or to master test-taking skills. In addition, I argue that nursing is MORE than passing the coveted NCLEX-RN. What makes me a well-rounded person and one capable of speaking at public hearings, publishing, or being respected by NON-nurses is my ability to write, appreciate philosophic roots and it's impact on society and how society(my patients) view things, how art can be therapeutic, how history has taught us lessons, etc to name a few.

My RN license is just a portion of who I am and where I fit in society, and how I can relate to other professionals of the world.

Ok, enough talking. Back to work. ;)

I agree with that 100%

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I am going to Graduate with a Degree. Cap and gown and all. It is called an associates degree.

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The next time you fly, remember that the pilot is not a professional...

It is a stereotype to say that membership in a union is the equivalent of having a "lesser" education. One has nothing to do with the other.

Being a well-rounded person is not contingent on how much education one has; yes, it doesn't hurt, but it is not the only way. Life experience and education obtained in settings other than formal ones all contribute to helping one provide "holistic" care.

I find the ANA's position equivocal, at best. If a BSN is considered to be the minimum entry level for "professional nursing", then they should back that up by closing membership to anyone with a lesser level of preparation.

When my car breaks down, you can bet your bippy I'll be glad for that "unprofessional" mechanic.

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Specializes in LDRP; Education.
Originally posted by MishlB

I know everyone is TIRED of this subject.....but you don't gain respect through years of education.

Not to be argumentative, but more inquisitive. What exactly then gains a person respect in our Western culture if not education? Let's take a look at who as a society we "respect."

Professional athletes? Perhaps.

Well accomplished physicians, scientists? Definitely.

Actors/actresses? Maybe not.

Sure, we respect the teachers who educate our young, we respect the firefighters for bravery, we respect moms who are fit to raise our young appropriately (and not simply be spreadin' their legs!) we respect individuals who rose above adversity and accomplished personal goals. Yes, this is all true. But, like it or not, society, as a whole, places value on educational levels and positions in professions, even if in a subconscious sense. It's evident in the media, in pop culture and in the way our society runs, at least in my opinion.

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Specializes in LDRP; Education.
Originally posted by fab4fan

Being a well-rounded person is not contingent on how much education one has; yes, it doesn't hurt, but it is not the only way. Life experience and education obtained in settings other than formal ones all contribute to helping one provide "holistic" care.

I agree completely. Life experience however, can not substitute for formal education, just as formal education can not substitute for life experience. Each complements each other. There is so much more to life than just MY limited experiences, no matter how broad, just as there is more to life than class content.

A well-rounded person needs BOTH. Just as a well-rounded person needs exposure to ALL aspects of what makes us a society, including art, literature, humanities, anthropology and science. Our society and what makes us people is ALOT more than just a nursing program prepping you to take a basic entry level test.

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SusieK: I do not disagree that increasing one's education is beneficial, and that society does place a certain value on degrees.

But your signature line really interests me, because it seems to conflict with your stated opinion...a least how I'm reading you.

In any case, I enjoy hearing different points of view...perhaps with continued dialogue we'll be able to find a middle ground.

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