Socialised Medicine the myths and the facts - page 16

The first and the most obvious concern is the cost to the patient and their family, we all know how devastating an illness can be for patients and their family many times I have witnessed the despair... Read More

  1. by   MaritesaRN
    Quote from elkpark
    We're living in the real world. We value and esteem the US Constitution, inc. the Bill of Rights just as much as you do (and, yes, I've read it and am v. familiar with the content, probably more so than many of the anti-reform zealots) -- and thanks for repeatedly implying that we're all stupid and blind because we don't share your particular opinions.

    The point of scientifically designed and conducted polls is that they reflect a truer picture of public opinion than someone's individual little area. Nearly all the nurses I know, and plenty of the physicians, support a single-payer system or at least the proposed "public option" plan. The fact that you don't know us personally doesn't mean that your personal little circle accurately reflects the larger public view.

    "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America." (emphasis mine)

    Welfare
    welfare n. 1. health, happiness, or prosperity; well-being. [<ME wel faren, to fare well] Source: AHD. (http://www.usconstitution.net/glossary.html#WELFARE)

    One of the main purposes of "ordain(ing) and establish(ing) this Constitution" was to promote the health and well-being of the citizenry -- which is exactly what a universal healthcare system would do. We all pay taxes to provide "free" police and firefighting services for everyone, we all pay taxes to provide "free" primary and secondary schools for everyone; I don't understand why we don't see healthcare services the same way -- we all pay taxes to make sure everyone has the services available. Every other industrialized nation on the planet has some kind of universal coverage program, and they spend less and have better healthcare outcomes than we do -- why is anyone still supporting our current system?????

    Bravo !! Well said, and thank you for putting it in the proper perspective. Maybe Saude needs to join the classes of the to be citizens where they study and understand more about our constitution before becoming a citizen. I have no idea as to why some people are still supporting the current system ...............it is scary to know though that some people refuse to "see" how bad the current system . Maybe if you have a dying grandma that could not access the private insurance fast enough to give her the needed treatment or a single mom w/ a child who is in welfare and having difficult time getting the needed services, just because they do not have enough money to access the best of the doctors and treatment?
    Yes, there is a good reason for our doubts of the capacity of an efficient health delivery by some of the public dept. Some are slow and inefficient, in other offices they are understaffed (childrens welfare) but this can be overhauled to have an efficient public health system. If we do not welcome and allow the change now, the broken current system will bankrupt our nation , and just like anything else, from this will come a domino effect in all areas of our economy and the people's lives. How can you concentrate for a quality of life when you do not even have a good, affordable , basic health care ?
    Let us be a big part of this health reform change----- way overdue !!!!
  2. by   Ginger's Mom
    I guess you need to inform Congress that they are wasting time putting in a Constitutional Amendment.


    http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/...:H.J.RES.4.IH:


    Health Protection Amendment of 2009 (Introduced in House)
    HJ 4 IH

    111th CONGRESS
    1st Session

    H. J. RES. 4
    Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the United States regarding health care.


    IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
    January 6, 2009

    Ms. MCCOLLUM introduced the following joint resolution;
  3. by   GiGiOm
    I actually never said this was a scientifically conducted survey. My point, if anybody actually got the gist of what I wrote, was the majority of people writing congress about this very urgent issue are AGAINST health care reform. Politicians are not scientists. They respond to public pressure. I am very aware of the fact that in more scientifically conducted surveys, the majority of respondents are for health care. I WAS NEVER ARGUING THAT POINT! I was pointing out that the people who want real reform (and I count myself among those in favor of reform) are not putting pressure on the very people who are going to be voting on a bill for health reform. We can sit here and argue all day long about reform; or we can start doing what the opposition is obviously already doing: making our voices heard. By the way, I use this website all the time and usually get a response from my representatives. I also belong to a political action group. I am well-read. I make it a point of staying up on current events and resent the implication that I do not know what I am talking about. I am going to repeat what I said in my previous post: If you are in favor of reform, please write your representatives and tell them so. We have to share in the responsibility of running our own country. Do you understand my point now?
  4. by   GiGiOm
    With all due respect, Madwife, I never said this was a scientific survey. This is a site that provides a means for people to contact their legislators about issues. It is an effective means of communicating with them. My point was that the people who are opposed to reform (and I am also very aware that they are the minority....I fact check, too) are being more vocal about it than those of us who are for reform. My point was to urge those of us who want reform to speak up to the people who are going to be voting on the issue. Politicians respond to Public Pressure. They are, after all, politicians. The site is called Congress.org. You can sign up for emails on legislation that the House and Senate will be voting on and contact your representatives with your stance on these issues. It is a vehicle for making your voice heard. That was the point of my post. We can argue among ourselves and let health care reform die a quiet death as the vocal minority gains momentum with their scare tactics. Or we can get on the horn ourselves and let congress know that the time for reform is now. This is a very complex and polarizing issue. Nurses need to be making themselves heard. That was the entire point of my post. Thank you.
  5. by   MaritesaRN
    Quote from Sade
    take care and Saude!

    The #1 to 7 really sounds good and should make the insurance companies really work for their money ....... no doubt thye are the ones that entered in this business purely for profit. they need to be regulated and the insurance commisioner is obviously not doing a good job controling this --- i think he is more of compain than regulating .:typing
    Another thing , I am sure we can disagree without belittling or condescending to others. Avoid using words such as "uneducated" ? Having a different opinion does not make the other person uneducated ! So cool it whoever is doing this? Thank you.
  6. by   madwife2002
    Quote from GiGiOm
    With all due respect, Madwife, I never said this was a scientific survey. This is a site that provides a means for people to contact their legislators about issues. It is an effective means of communicating with them. My point was that the people who are opposed to reform (and I am also very aware that they are the minority....I fact check, too) are being more vocal about it than those of us who are for reform. My point was to urge those of us who want reform to speak up to the people who are going to be voting on the issue. Politicians respond to Public Pressure. They are, after all, politicians. The site is called Congress.org. You can sign up for emails on legislation that the House and Senate will be voting on and contact your representatives with your stance on these issues. It is a vehicle for making your voice heard. That was the point of my post. We can argue among ourselves and let health care reform die a quiet death as the vocal minority gains momentum with their scare tactics. Or we can get on the horn ourselves and let congress know that the time for reform is now. This is a very complex and polarizing issue. Nurses need to be making themselves heard. That was the entire point of my post. Thank you.
    No offense taken I was just curious. Even if it was a scientific survey I am often wary of those too because so many times they are so subjective to the person or persons conductuting them, and are very often bias-I honestly believe it is almost impossible to eliminate bias from any form of study these days. I know I am cynical LOL
  7. by   Ginger's Mom
    The majority of health insurance companies are non profit....so when people say the need to change the health care system why are you trying to punish non profit health insurance companies which are the majority of the health carriers.
  8. by   MaritesaRN
    Quote from MedSurg32RN
    The majority of health insurance companies are non profit....so when people say the need to change the health care system why are you trying to punish non profit health insurance companies which are the majority of the health carriers.

    Non profit health insurance? such as ???? The private insurance is a business , and that is the only reason that they get in the game.......why do you think they have been sued left and right ? If your comment is becaseu you are employed by a private insurance companies, then denial or ignorance in your part is really not beneficial for all. Private insurance companies will still exist , they just could not "fix" the premiums because then there are real competetion w/ the public health insurance. :typing
  9. by   MaritesaRN
    Quote from madwife2002
    No offense taken I was just curious. Even if it was a scientific survey I am often wary of those too because so many times they are so subjective to the person or persons conductuting them, and are very often bias-I honestly believe it is almost impossible to eliminate bias from any form of study these days. I know I am cynical LOL

    I know what she is talking about . I have been supporting by sending messages to my senators and the white hous (white house.gov) . this is an example of a response from my senator. I am qouting her and sharing this because whe was quite articulate to what I have been trying to say in this thread , about the Health reform. when I read some of the responses , it saddens me that some highly educated nurses still do not see the total picture.
    "
    Thank you for writing to me about pending health care reform legislation. I am committed to working with President Obama to ensure that Americans have access to high-quality, affordable healthcare that they can rely on. With the right legislation, I believe we can greatly improve care for our families, while containing the growing costs of health care.
    The status quo is unsustainable- Americans will spend more than $2.5 trillion on health care this year, more than one in every six dollars in the U.S. economy. In all, we spend twice as much per person on health care than other advanced nations, yet the United States ranks near the bottom of the 30 leading industrialized nations in basic measures of health such as infant mortality and life expectancy.
    The situation is even worse for individual families, who are struggling to afford skyrocketing premiums and increased co-pays and deductibles. Health care premiums have more than doubled in the last nine years, and one respected study shows that, if we fail to act, the average California family will have to spend 41 percent of its income for health insurance premiums by 2016.
    The growing number of uninsured is also contributing to higher costs- 46 million Americans do not have health insurance, and every day, another 14,000 Americans lose their coverage when they become seriously ill or lose or change their jobs. To make up for the coverage gap, families pay on average an extra $1,100 a year in premium costs.
    Moreover, poor regulation of insurance companies means that even those with health insurance coverage are not always guaranteed to get the benefits they are promised. Every day I hear from Californians who can't get health insurance because of a pre-existing condition, or who are denied the medical treatment prescribed by a doctor because of insurance company bureaucrats. This is wrong, and we have to do better for our families.
    That is why I have joined President Obama and many of my colleagues in support of some basic principles for action. Any health care reform must allow every American who likes their current health coverage to keep it. Health coverage must be made accessible and affordable, and insurance companies must no longer be allowed to discriminate against those with pre-existing conditions or drop you if you become seriously ill. We must increase investments in prevention and wellness as that will save billions of dollars. And health care reform must not add a single dollar to the Federal deficit.
    As we move to enact health care reform, I will fight for a bill that meets these principals. As a U.S. Senator, I can choose from a wide array of health care plans, and I believe that all Americans deserve this opportunity.
    Again, thank you for writing to me. Please feel free to contact me again about this or other issues of concern to you.

    Barbara Boxer
    United States Senator


    :redpinkhe
  10. by   elkpark
    Quote from MedSurg32RN
    The majority of health insurance companies are non profit....so when people say the need to change the health care system why are you trying to punish non profit health insurance companies which are the majority of the health carriers.
    I would need to see some documentation to support your statement because, to the best of my knowledge, nearly all the health insurance companies are private-for-profit businesses, same as homeowner's insurance, car insurance, or any other kind of insurance business. Sure, health insurance originally started out in this country as non-profit cooperatives, many decades ago, but nearly all of those have fallen by the wayside or have been bought out by the private-for-profit companies. Do you really think that Aetna is non-profit? United Healthcare? Cigna? Even most of the Blue Cross Blue Shield state agencies, which were originally non-profit cooperatives, have been bought out by for-profit insurance companies (they particularly like to do that, because they can continue to use the BCBS name, which has great public recognition and confidence (misplaced once they've been turned for-profit, of course)).
  11. by   elkpark
    Quote from GiGiOm
    I actually never said this was a scientifically conducted survey. My point, if anybody actually got the gist of what I wrote, was the majority of people writing congress about this very urgent issue are AGAINST health care reform. Politicians are not scientists. They respond to public pressure. I am very aware of the fact that in more scientifically conducted surveys, the majority of respondents are for health care. I WAS NEVER ARGUING THAT POINT! I was pointing out that the people who want real reform (and I count myself among those in favor of reform) are not putting pressure on the very people who are going to be voting on a bill for health reform. We can sit here and argue all day long about reform; or we can start doing what the opposition is obviously already doing: making our voices heard. By the way, I use this website all the time and usually get a response from my representatives. I also belong to a political action group. I am well-read. I make it a point of staying up on current events and resent the implication that I do not know what I am talking about. I am going to repeat what I said in my previous post: If you are in favor of reform, please write your representatives and tell them so. We have to share in the responsibility of running our own country. Do you understand my point now?
    I did get your point in the first place, and didn't intend to sound argumentative or like I was implying you were wrong about anything. I was just attempting to clarify the question raised by another poster about the difference between public polls and the statistic on congress.org that you mentioned about the percentages supporting or opposing the various healthcare reform proposals. I also wanted to make the point that lots of us are contacting our representatives without going through the congress.org site, so I would question how accurate a tally it represents of how many of us who are contacting our representatives are "for" or "against." It only counts the number of people using congress.org to contact their elected officials, not the total messages elected officials are receiving. Sorry if I came across differently!
  12. by   Ginger's Mom
    Quote from maritesa
    Non profit health insurance? such as ???? The private insurance is a business , and that is the only reason that they get in the game.......why do you think they have been sued left and right ? If your comment is becaseu you are employed by a private insurance companies, then denial or ignorance in your part is really not beneficial for all. Private insurance companies will still exist , they just could not "fix" the premiums because then there are real competetion w/ the public health insurance. :typing

    Blue Cross Blue Shield is number one Insurance company in the USA- NON Profit, in my State Tufts Health Plan - Non Profit, Harvard Pilgrim Non Profit, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Cr...ld_Association

    They cover 1/3 of Americans, another group Medicare and Mecaid

    United Health and Aetna are for profit and check Yahoo finance ----- they are there .

    Majority of Americans are covered by non profit.


    What ever raise you enjoy working as nurse is caused by the For Profits paying high rates. They are the one you can thank for you raises.
  13. by   elkpark
    Quote from MedSurg32RN
    Blue Cross Blue Shield is number one Insurance company in the USA- NON Profit, in my State Tufts Health Plan - Non Profit, Harvard Pilgrim Non Profit, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Cr...ld_Association

    They cover 1/3 of Americans, another group Medicare and Mecaid

    United Health and Aetna are for profit and check Yahoo finance ----- they are there .

    Majority of Americans are covered by non profit.


    What ever raise you enjoy working as nurse is caused by the For Profits paying high rates. They are the one you can thank for you raises.
    I'm delighted that you have so many non-profit options for health insurance from which to choose (an option you don't want the rest of us to have, I notice.) You happen to live in an unusually progressive, civilized, and enlightened state, which is certainly not representative of the rest of the country.

    It may well be the case that 1/3 of Americans have BCBS coverage, but BCBS is not "an insurance company" (singular). There are many separate, independent BCBS organizations (originally, there was one in every state, although there has been quite a bit of consolidation since then), and it is certainly not the case that all state BCBS groups are non-profit. The wikipedia article you cited explains this (wikipedia as a reference? really??), if one actually reads the article. Over the last couple decades or so, BCBSs have been converting to private-for-profit companies, slowly but surely. As time goes by, more and more of them are private-for-profit insurance companies indistinguishable from all the others.

    "On August 15, 2008, Horizon Blue Cross Blue Shield of New Jersey, the State's largest, and only non-profit health insurer, filed an application with the NJ Department of Banking and Insurance (DOBI) and the Office of the Attorney General (OAG) to convert to become a for-profit insurance company. Horizon's latest bid to convert raises numerous concerns relative to the health of NJ consumers and taxpayers."
    http://www.njcitizenaction.org/horizon.html

    "A national trend the last decade involves not-for-profit organizations - especially health care service providers and insurers - converting to for-profit status. From Oregon to Maine to New Mexico to Georgia - and dozens of states in between - not-for-profit health care providers have been merging and seeking a change in status to become forprofit entities. Officials of Blue Cross Blue Shield of Delaware have said the company may seek to make a similar transition in the future."
    http://www.allbusiness.com/specialty.../967901-1.html

    "If you know the history of the Blue Cross Blue Shield Association and the way the public has been screwed in a number of non-profit conversions to for-profit companies, then you can clearly see what is happening. Establishing a non-profit co-op leaves the door open for corporate takeovers by private insurers. Consumers Union has a whole section of its website dedicated to the conversion of non-profit entities to for-profit status. One area of primary concern is the non-profit health sector. Among its many documents (PDF link) is a paper detailing the extant pressures pushing non-profit insurers (like most Blue Cross Blue Shield plans) into for-profit status. The drive toward for-profit status and abandoning its charter for the public benefit was a Reagan era change in tax status for Blue Cross Blue Shield plans." (emphasis mine)
    http://www.boomantribune.com/?op=dis.../10/19102/0938

    Here is the link to the Consumers Union paper, since the PDF link in the original quote quit working when I cut and pasted it: http://www.consumersunion.org/conv/

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