Professionalism and Credentials

fergus51 · Nov 9, 2001

I am now in Canada and the BSN has become the minimum for new nurses in BC, Ontario and PEI that I know of. I think a few more provinces will be or already have followed suit. I don't know if it makes better nurses or not, but I do think it increases our credibility when we demand more respect as professionals.

As for the certification: My problem with it is the fact that we need to take extra courses to work in almost any specialty area. The L&D course is a minimum of 27 credit courses which included practicum (takes about a year and a bit part time). How am I supposed to pay for this and have time for it (especially a six week long practicum)? It's the reason a lot of Canadian new grads go to the US (because you're willing to do on the job training). I would think all of our continuing education courses would be enough to convince people that a nurse is not a nurse.

pama · Nov 9, 2001

Not again. Please check the statistics before posting. Statistics show the ADN graduate out scores the BSN on the NCLEX-RN graduate. Statistics also show hospitals would rather hire an ADN graduate over a BSN graduate due to the training and education.

No one can make me believe a BSN is better than an ADN. Look at the curriculum. The major difference is the support courses. BSN programs require additional hours in humanities, not the nuts and bolts of the nursing curriculum. ADN programs are strong in sciences, nursing courses, and clinicals.

The BSN as entry into practice comes about everytime BSN programs begin to experience low enrollments. Again, look at the statistics.

Truthfully, I am tired of this being an issue!

Julie, RN · Nov 9, 2001

Just Brainstorming......

How about BSN programs being a 5-yr curriculum with the last year strictly a residency? The BSN program could also be altered to include more core nursing. As far as a science back ground, I had 3 semesters of chemistry, 2 semesters of A&P, microbiology, pathophysiology, pharmacology, and basic biology. I think pre-science courses are required for nursing no matter what degree you get? As for NCLEX scores, they are like SAT's and GRE's and don't make a nurse a "better" nurse b/c of a particular score (some people are good test takers and some are not). I also like the canadian idea of requiring additional college classes to specialize.

:)

KRVRN, BSN, RN · Nov 9, 2001

I won't debate which is the better degree. But...

"statistics show hospitals would rather hire ADN's than BSN's..." is rather a broad, weak statement. I can't imagine this quote being extrapolated to a very large population over the entire US. As we all know, it's all individual and a matter of opinion. My hospital would rather hire BSN's. That happens to be their preference. Were they included in the statistic?

I also think you will get a fair amount of disagreement in saying that the only difference is the amount of humanities courses. If that were so, then why would hospitals want to hire ADN's instead of BSN's--why would it matter?

If you hate the constant debate, pama, maybe you shouldn't start your post with "not again..." and end it with "...I'm tired of this being an issue." Mattcastens was asking a question, not starting a debate.

I would like to read said statistics so I can be enlightened before I post again, please. Where can I access them?

CareerRN · Nov 9, 2001

I have to agree with the intention and the logic behind making a BSN a requirement, but I have to disagree based on reality.

When and how is a liberal humanities class such as "Ancient Roman Architecture 101", and "Piano 101" actually going to uplift the nursing profession? Yes it might make for a better rounded education, but is taking a class to learn how to play a piano going to make anyone more of a professional?

These are filler classes and ways for a college to derive more income, nothing more and nothing less. The fact of the matter is that most of the nursing programs require 2 years of prerequisites before you can start.

Maybe the answer to this question is more focus on us. If we want to have more respect, better compensation, and better working conditions, then maybe we need to unite and demand it and accept nothing less. Maybe we should be focusing on all the individuals who hold us back by accepting what ever is thrown our way and will continue to allow it to continue. It seems like everyone wants someone else to step in and change things for us i.e. government, the public, administration, etc.. Is it not time for us to take the bull by the horns and change things ourselves. How long will it take for this to happen? How many more nurses do we have to loose before enough is enough. Efforts are being focused on replacing the nurses who have left and are leaving because they got tired of the conditions of nursing in general. So we just continue to try to replace the nurses who are everyday saying enough is enough and leave. Shouldn't the main focus be on stopping the mass exodus of experienced nurses who are leaving today and trying to get the one's who have left to come back? Now I wonder how this can be actually accomplished? Do you possibly think that maybe having nurses in charge and actually calling the shots as to how and under what conditions we will practice including appropriate compensation for our responsibilities might accomplish this? When I say nurses in charge and calling the shots, I am not referring to educators, nurse administrators, of politicians who have not been at the bedside in years. I am talking about the nurses who are actually there.

nicola · Nov 9, 2001

When I was deciding which track to take to become an RN, I polled many, many nurses. Their back grounds were varied - LPN's, RN's, dilpomas, ADN's and BSN's... To a person they told me to go for the BSN because it would make me more employable and would open more doors for me. I was reluctant because I ALREADY HAD a bachelor's degree and didn't particularly want to do 4 more years. Yet I don't regret my decision because all the jobs I've held as an RN have required the BSN. I've done home care and am now a supervisor.

Now, what does "Footwear of Ancient Rome: an economic study" have to do with nursing? Nothing, really. I would argue that many of the non-nursing classes I took have helped me be a better nurse. My orig. degree is in Spanish and Sociology. I can communicate with twice as many people as my non-bilingual collegues. My background in soc. has made me more able to look at systems and see how the illness of one person affects the rest of the family. I took courses in logic and programming. Why? To clean up my thought processes. I had a penchant for sloppy thinking - not great for a nurse!

I agree with the public perception of the BSN v. the ADN. I also agree that the BSN programs need to do more hands on before sending people out to work. Why not have a 5 year program ending in a year long preceptorship? I would have loved that and would have been a better nurse had I experienced that kind of thing.

In the meantime, I think that we need to quit bickering amongst ourselves and start working together!

BrandyBSN · Nov 9, 2001

Matt wasnt starting a "who is better than who" debate. However, I find your comment about "hospitals prefering ADN nurses over BSN nurses" to be obsurd. I have seen many advertisments for RNs, with "BSN PREFERED", but I have yet to see one that says "ADN PREFRERD". If you find out of these, please post the address of the job listing page, so that I can be corrected.

Neither makes you are better bedside nurse than the other. However, the compensation issue is valid. Compare nurses to teachers for a minute. A teacher with an Associates degree still has the certification to teach, they can teach all of the same courses as a teacher, and they might be as good as of a teacher (or better) than a teacher who has a bachelors degree. However similiar their skills are, the bachelor's degree teacher gets paid more. why? as a compensation for further education. Compensation for education occurs in almost every other profession, but not in nursing. That does not make sense to me.

Some hospitals do compensate, and when I was job hunting, i looked for them. I have chosen a hospital that DOES pay for further education. Its not a great deal more, but atleast they acknowledge, and make a distinction.

I think you are on the right track Matt. It might never be a reality, but atleast it can be the ideal.

BrandyBSN

**canoehead, BSN, RN** · Nov 9, 2001

Everything I've learned has been based on the diploma program, and I thought it was too short.

I took the BSN after the diploma, it was a waste of time and money- not to mention my energy.

I would prefer a 4 year program, with the diploma as the model, get people on the floors early and base the curriculum studies on the clinical experience. I would be for making the last year the specialty year with extra courses in whatever you choose to specialize in, or a basic med surg rotation system for those who don't want to limit themselves.

I am available to teach for this type of program anytime. :cool:

essarge · Nov 9, 2001

Pama- you state:

"Not again. Please check the statistics before posting. Statistics show the ADN graduate out scores the BSN on the NCLEX-RN graduate. Statistics also show hospitals would rather hire an ADN graduate over a BSN graduate due to the training and education"

Please tell us where you got these statistics from.

I am in a nursing program and would love to have the program extended one year to do a "residency". It would not only benefit me but also my future patients with the knowledge that I could amass from it.

I agree with Brandy. When I am ready to look for a job, I will be looking for someplace that pays higher wages for higher education.

No, maybe the literature course I have to take might not have anything to do with nursing per se but, all of the classes (including if I choose to take piano), will make me more rounded, able to discuss various subjects with a wide variety of people that I have contact with after I graduate. So yes, getting my bachelor's degree is well worth it (not to mention that I will have the ability to move up the ladder to areas that DO require a bachelor's degree).

mattcastens · Nov 9, 2001

Originally posted by CareerRN
I have to agree with the intention and the logic behind making a BSN a requirement, but I have to disagree based on reality.

When and how is a liberal humanities class such as "Ancient Roman Architecture 101", and "Piano 101" actually going to uplift the nursing profession? Yes it might make for a better rounded education, but is taking a class to learn how to play a piano going to make anyone more of a professional?

These are filler classes and ways for a college to derive more income, nothing more and nothing less. The fact of the matter is that most of the nursing programs require 2 years of prerequisites before you can start.

I think this is actually backwards thinking. As I wrote before, a two-year degree is what is needed to become an auto mechanic or a dental hygenist. If we start asking why and what the liberal arts and research classes have to do with bedside nursing we hurt our image. The public response might be, "Nothing ... after all, you're just glorified techncians." That is exactly the image we are trying to get away from. What if physicians only took the strict sciences and skills needed to become doctors?

Do all of the "extra classes" make us better bedside nurses? YES! Because they help us understand the world, other cultures and each other. They teach us how to think in different ways and with differing points of view. They allow us to consiously work through problems.

Can I, with an associate degree do these things? Of course! Am I a better nurse than some of my BSN collegues? I think so. However, my point is that public perception is very important. If we want to improve our image, maybe we should be demanding very much more from ourselves. Education is respected in our culture, let's start there. If we remain satisfied with the level of education required by dental hygenists, we will be percieved as "medical hygenists" and not the professionals that we truly are.

fergus51 · Nov 9, 2001

Our BSN and diploma courses are exactly the same except that BSNs get another year of school where they do community/public health and more hospital hours. I never took piano or architecture, I had sciences as my electives, and the diploma students had to have electives too.

Julie, I absolutely hate the fact that we need another bunch of courses to work in specialty areas because it takes my time and money. I don't see why a hospital that is short of nurses won't pay for us to take these courses (some are starting to but they're few and far between). To work in say L&D at my hospital means a minimum of 5 years of school! It's ridiculous.