Doctor Asked For A "Kind" Nurse - page 7
Let me preface this thread by stating a few things: 1. I'm not posting this thread to bash certain religions, I'm posting to vent, gain understanding, and get a variety of views. 2. Whatever... Read More
Mar 25, '03Originally posted by emily_mom
Christian parents are often confused about the issue of corporal punishment, believing that they must spank their child in order to be godly parents. They take literally the phrase, "Spare the rod and spoil the child." Some religious teachers reinforce this notion by quoting scriptures out of context. Among the verses they cite: "Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline will drive it far from him" (Proverbs 22:15); "He who spares the rod, hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him" (Proverbs 13:24); and "Do not withhold discipline from a child; punish him with the rod, and save his soul from death" (Proverbs 29:15).
At first reading, these passages might seem to support spanking. But this is not the only way to interpret them. The term rod is used throughout the Bible in connection with the shepherd's staff: "Your rod and your staff, they comfort me" (Psalms 23:4). The shepherd's staff is, in fact, used to guide wandering sheep along the right path, not to hit sheep who stray. So a compassionate reader could interpret the Bible as saying that parents must lead and guide their children but not harm them. This teaching is developed beautifully in the book A Shepherd Looks at Psalm 23, by Philip Keller.
Finally, note that references to the "rod" are found primarily in the Old Testament. In the New Testament, Christ preaches compassion, love, and understanding, as does Paul. We would hope that all parents, hearing teachers warn about sparing the rod will remember Paul's words in 1 Corinthians: "Shall I come to you with a rod, or in love and the spirit of gentleness?" - William Sears
You are totally right, StevieLynn! Many of the Mennonites in our area believe in this, but they don't beat their children either. You can make anything sound like God's word when taken out of context. Thanks for bringing this up. :kiss
Mar 25, '03I hadn't heard that before either, Kristy, but it makes a helluva lot more sense to me. Thanks for sharing that.
Vegas, nothing useful to add except a big (((hug))) to you! This case sounds very difficult emotionally for everyone involved.
Mar 25, '03I guess I would be the "unkind" nurse too. I just don't think I could stand by and watch it. Too much overprotective mom of an 18 year old in me I guess.
My SIL is JW. She and another JW came to my house many years ago to talk with me about the JW faith. The issue of blood was brought up then and I told them both flattly that if I had their beliefs I would not be there right then to even be having that conversation. The conversation ended shortly there after
Such a sad situation. Couldn't do it with my son. Not saying anything against them, I just couldn't do it.
Mar 25, '03Vegas, I can understand your frustration, and certianly it would be a hard case to take on at any level of care. In my own situation though I would do anything for any of my patient regardless of religion. That's just who I am.
However, I am a person and I do have personal beliefs and feelings of my own. In my own life I do not persecute anyone d/t his or her beliefs. But there are just some things that happen in each of our own lives that makes us go one way or another. Does not necessarilly mean that we would hate or ridicule, we just choose not to go that way.
Before I get too personal I think I'll sign off here. I send all that are involved in this and any other situation similiar my best...may you keep the strength to help those in your care!
(I really don't like getting so serious, it makes me grouchy! )
Mar 25, '03Flynurse, I think I understand what you are saying... it's not my religious beliefs that makes this case difficult, it's being a mother and a human. The plain and simple truth that faces all the caregivers and health professionals on this case is that we are all parents who can not and do not understand allowing a child to die.
Okay, on a professional note, I got in touch with our JW hospital liason who is assisting with finding bloodless facilities nearby (we met with the house ethicist) and proceeding from there. We also got a list from the JW liason of alternative treatments which thankfully we had already instituted the ones that are applicable in this patient's case.
Mar 25, '03Originally posted by ayemmeff
Are you including our knowledge of the development of WMD etc. in that?
Not flaming you,just curious?
It sounds a little to me as if you are implying that humans don't have any choice and any knowledge we have *must * be used.
Mar 25, '03[QUOTE]Originally posted by LasVegasRN
[B]Flynurse, I think I understand what you are saying... it's not my religious beliefs that makes this case difficult, it's being a mother and a human. The plain and simple truth that faces all the caregivers and health professionals on this case is that we are all parents who can not and do not understand allowing a child to die.
If your reason for not taking care of this patient is your a mother and a human, would you also refuse to care for a pediatric sickle cell patient. Their parents made a conscious decision to bring a child into a life of great pain and eventual early death. To refuse an asignment because you do not agree with the choosen treatment is forcing your beliefs upon others and telling them they cannot have the benifit of your education and experience because what they decided is wrong for you. Healthcare should be blind to race,creed,color,religious and cultural beliefs. We as nurses are there to help people in time of medical and emotional crisis. We offer our knowledge and try to teach people what the latest scientific treatments are available. It is up to the people to decide how that scientific knowledge is to be used. Refusual to treat a patient because you do not agree with a family, appears to atleast me as a form of bigotry( I dont say this to belittle), I dont like your beliefs so I am going to treat you different. Who gets to make these decisions? How would you feel if in a time of great family crisis, you had nurses refusing to care for your family member simply because they don't agree with your decsisions? I don't write this to flame anyone, but to simply ask the questions, Who has the right to change my beliefs because they don't like them? and What gives anyone the right to refuse me the choice of my or my family's healthcare?
Mar 25, '03Originally posted by LasVegasRN
I don't feel comfortable sharing too many details of this case - I don't want to tread on confidentiality issues, but at this time the patient has a new diagnosis and the physicians are discussing transferring the patient to a facility that is used to handling cases such as these. The Hgb is down to 5, petechiae is there, and now questioning intercranial hemorrage in addition to everything else.
I was involved in the physicians conference and all are extremely frustrated with this, but are handling it professionally (I really have to commend them). We have the house ethics nurse involved and I'll get started researching facilities. :stone
Mar 25, '03Originally posted by fab4fan
Sorry...posted this before I saw that you'd already spoken with a rep. of HLC.
Montroyal - No comparison to sickle cell. Those patients can and do receive treatment and live normal lives with their illness. You're comparing apples to oranges. Last I checked, all of us in the medical profession have a right to resign from a case that we are not comfortable with. It doesn't make us bigots, it doesn't make us unkind. Think of the female nurse assigned to a convicted rapist that reminds her of the man who raped her. Is she a bigot for not being comfortable with that assignment? I think not.
This is a case about CHOICE. You could ask the same question if some OB/GYN nurses could care for patients having elective abortions. Some do not participate in the procedure for personal reasons - they have that right.Last edit by LasVegasRN on Mar 25, '03
Mar 25, '03I would not refuse to take care of the patient because I didn't agree with their decision. I don't think I COULD take care of the patient because I would be CRYING too much thinking that could be my child. So maybe in some instances I would be too sensitive, sorry. If though, I thought I could hold myself together I would be more than glad to care for that patient and try to do everything within my power to make him/her as comfortable as possible.
Mar 25, '03Originally posted by montroyal ....Refusual to treat a patient because you do not agree with a family, appears to atleast me as a form of bigotry( I dont say this to belittle), I dont like your beliefs so I am going to treat you different. Who gets to make these decisions? How would you feel if in a time of great family crisis, you had nurses refusing to care for your family member simply because they don't agree with your decsisions? I don't write this to flame anyone, but to simply ask the questions, Who has the right to change my beliefs because they don't like them? and What gives anyone the right to refuse me the choice of my or my family's healthcare?...
Next point: The patient is not being treated any different because of their decision. As the case manager on this case I DO not have the ability to just resign as the bedside nurse would have the right to do. I have to deal with it. So, in order to deal with it, I have done the following:
- Called in the house nurse ethicist
- Contacted and am working with the JW hospital liason
- Consulted with the physicians on this case who want to make sure this patient can be treated by a facility who deals with "bloodless" patients all the time.
The ethicist helps in making sure we are not doing anything that would be construed as being wrong and that we are following ethical practices given the situation.
The JW liason is working with me to get in touch with the facilities nearby AND a physician specialist who can conference with our phsycians on the management of this case. Not only that, this person can provide additional spiritual support to the family.
If there is anything else I could think of to assist the patient and family, I would. I keep my comments, anger and frustration to myself.
Unfortunately, we are working against time and an eventual full blown DIC.Last edit by LasVegasRN on Mar 25, '03
Mar 25, '03Vegas, glad to hear you are working with the JW liason and the ethics committee. (In our neuro case we didn't have that kind of time since he was bleeding way to fast for that).
Even though you said you don't understand are frustrated as a parent, you are stepping out of that box and caring for the patient, doing your job (even though you said you couldn't be his direct care provider, you still are being professional and doing his case management), and talking about it. That's admirable.
I think the DNR consideration is very appropriate. I think if he is refusing life saving treatment, someone should tell him "you are bleeding to death, and resusitating you will be futile."