Doctor Asked For A "Kind" Nurse

[LasVegasRN]

Let me preface this thread by stating a few things:

1. I'm not posting this thread to bash certain religions, I'm posting to vent, gain understanding, and get a variety of views.

2. Whatever your belief, please respect the beliefs of others.

That said, I admit to not understanding how parents can stand by and watch their child bleed to death.

Teenager, throwing up blood for 2 days, H & H 6.1 and 17.0. Platelets 14. WBC 1.0. Pancytopenia. A religion that does not allow blood products or transfusions. Essentially we will be watching this patient die. As the majority of us know, some fresh frozen plasma, units of packed cells, the ability to SAFELY do an EGD and the patient would be discharged home in about 2 days.

Instead, in 4 hours when the next CBC was done, the Hgb was down to 5.8.

I overheard the attending doc asking the charge nurse to assign a "kind" nurse as this was a "difficult" case. I felt that was unnecessary, because as hard as it is for all of us to watch this, we still treat the patient and family with compassion.

My main point: I'm hoping someone could explain to me, how in the world can you stand by and allow your child to die?

Harsh question, and I'm sure an age-old question, but I do not and can not understand it.

[leeca]

Originally posted by sjoe

Vegas writes: "Further, what's the point of bringing the patient to the hospital ANYWAY? If you are of a belief that doesn't believe in life saving measures - which is obvious here - why not just keep them at home? Sign up for Hospice?"

Exactly. Except for the fact that if this person were to die at home, the parents could well be prosecuted for criminal neglect and/or child endangerment, as several parents have been in the past. This way, they got the hospital to abet and condone their behavior, involving itself in similar potential criminal charges.

Many hospitals would have simply contacted the state child protection authorities and gotten a court order to medically intervene in such a case.

Perhaps when yours is one day successfully prosecuted and/or sued for damages, it will alter its current policy. Until then, it is simply taking the "easy way out" by not standing up to parents such as these, at the expense of patients' lives.

"Kind" in this case, means "the kind of nurse who is totally compliant to the doc's orders regardless of the law and/or professional ethics and is unable to think for him/herself."

Whatdo you mean "standing up to parents such as these", l'm astounded at the comments made with absolutely no understanding of what you are talking about.

[Stargazer]

leeca, if you are a Jehovah's Witness, I can understand how you might feel hurt or insulted by some of what you've read, but rather than characterizing other poster's comments or questions as "stupid", why not take the opportunity to educate a few thousand nurses here on your practices and beliefs? There are some legitimate questions and sincere requests for information here.

[leeca]

Originally posted by LasVegasRN

The patient is 18, thus able to make own decision.

I still don't understand the purpose of seeking medical attention if they are not going to accept it.

Nothing is going to save this patient except blood products. Period. I still ask what is the point of coming to the hospital, and shouldn't Hospice be offered as an alternative since death has been chosen?

The same statement was said about a relative of mine "nothing is going to save this patient except blood products", which was refused. And guess what she's still alive and now fit and healthy.

Guess the docs aren't god after all and can't predict what going to happen.

[hoolahan, ASN, RN]

People, Vegas is sharing her feelings and experiences here. I have read zillions of her posts, and she is definitely NOT a "bigot", "unkind", uncaring, stupid, etc...

Can we please express our opinions w/o the personal attacks?? Geez!!! I think Vegas should be commended for reaching out to many different resources, that I would have never thought of, she is not discrimintaing against the pt IRL, just is trying to understand a situation that is personally incomprehnsible if she were to place herself in that family's shoes.

Didn't mean to put words in your mouth Vegas, and I know you can hold her own, but there is a lot of judgement being passed here about you, that as your cyber friend, I do not appreciate or agree with! :kiss

[NurseGirlKaren]

Let's try to resume this as a DISCUSSION. Labeling posters' comments as "stupid" and "with absolutely no understanding of what they're talking about" do not do anything to further this discourse.

[leeca]

Originally posted by 3rdShiftGuy

Plus if they took blood and saved themselves they would be put out of the church, his own parents would disown him, shun him. A fate worse than death in some of their eyes. You may as well tell him to eat his dog, he isn't going to take the blood, they are that adamant.

This statement is inaccurate.

[leeca]

Originally posted by P_RN

Several of our orthopods have done many total joints on people of this faith without use of blood. Some would agree to cell-saver and autologous retransfusion, but some did not. The lowest hgb I recall was 5 something.

On another note we lost a friend last year whose family member was of this faith but he was not. The family member refused any blood products.

Are you sure this is true. If the family member was an adult who wasn't not of the faith, then the other family member who was can't make the decision about not accepting blood for them.

[cactus wren]

leeca

Senior Member

Registered: Jan 2003

Location: geelong

Posts: 58

Post #94

l'm so sick and tired of people making judgements on things they know nothing about.

First of all they do not sit back and allow their children to die, they are happy for docs to use alternative methods to help their children, like Ringers Lactate etc instead of blood. Docs prefer to use blood because its cheaper.

Huh ?? Since when??? Not here anyways....

And thanks to earlier posters.....you have educated me about Belifs held by JW.....While my church does not share these beliefs, I am enlightened as to why you do, and ....well...guess that`s why there are so many different churches, we need to find the one that speaks to each one of us personally....Peace

[leeca]

Originally posted by sjoe

"What was said about JW was inaccurate."

There are several "branches" of JW (like every other religion in the world), each one thinks it has the "correct" message. What was said about JW IS accurate for some of these branches, inaccurate for others.

BTW, I hadn't noticed that Vegas has later posted that the patient was 18 years old, which removes my argument about parents/minors/children/etc. If this patient had wanted blood products, etc. then specific advance directives would have been in order (ANOTHER reason to complete these directives at the earliest possible age, unless one wishes next-of-kin to make the decisions).

fab writes: "Care of minors presents the greatest concern, often resulting in legal action against parents under child-neglect statutes. But such actions are questioned by many physicians and attorneys familiar with Witness cases, who believe that Witness parents seek good medical care for their children. Not desirous of shirking their parental responsibility or of shifting it to a judge or other third party"

Who cares whether "many" physicians and attorneys...question such actions? Other physicians and attorneys do NOT question such legal actions. It is up to a judge and/or a jury to decide in these cases.

Regardless, the hospital has some serious legal exposure by not contacting the authorities in a timely manner in this case, as do those employees who knew about the situation and did not do so themselves.

Ask Nevada's BON and its attorney general, if you think I am mistaken. (Not about JW, of course, but about legal obligations and remedies.) We don't want Vegas to be posting from inside the slammer in the future.

There are not many branches of JW, no matter what state or country they are from they all believe the sme things. No matter where the live the blood issue is the same.

As you pointed out you aren't a JW, then how do you know what you are stating is accurate?

[leeca]

Originally posted by stevielynn

In regards to "shunning" . . . . we have an EMT here who left her JW faith and is shunned by her parents. They do not even acknowledge her or her children. They visit the LTC patients as part of their ministry and walk right past their daughter without acknowledging her. I've never heard of shunning someone for taking blood though.

Unnfortunately sometimes this happens, but bear in mind this is the parents personnal decision, not all parents react this way if a family member leaves the JW faith.

[fab4fan]

If anyone has questions after reading the info on the site I posted, I would be happy to do that...so far, I haven't seen any questions that aren't answered there.

Except for this one, come to think of it. The question about a minor child who requests blood when the parents refuse it: In that situation, it would probably result in a court order. Many variables, such as the child's age (I can't really say that I could see this happen with a small child, but possibly with a teenager who doesn't share his parents' beliefs). My resource did not know of any actual cases of this happening--not to say it couldn't.

[kittyw]

leeca -

How about instead of post after post of you're wrong, why don't you tell us what is right? Take this as a time to teach us instead of just telling everyone else that they are wrong.

Kitty