Artificial feeding-Terri Schiavo

[ktwlpn]

I posted this here becaue I think this subject is something that we as nurses deal with on a regular basis.....Many many people state that they have a big problem with the feeding being stopped "allowing her to starve to death" The Vatican says " To starve her to death is pitiless" Most everyone agrees that it is one's right to refuse to initiate artificial feeding but somehow this situation "is different" How? The patient "starves to death " in both cases-so why has this one galvanized the WORLD? My husband read me a quote from the Bible -forgive me because I can't remember it in detail-it was something along the lines that a woman marries and leaves her father's house and her husband becomes her family....My husband is my POA I hope no-one in my family questions his motives -He KNOWS exactly what I want....I can't question her husbands motives-I know that some suspect foul play and state the results of a bone scan support this...That bone scan was obtained 53 months after she went into her coma-after her body suffered the effects of her eating disorders for a number of years.... Her present level of responsiveness does not pertain to this matter IMHO-she CAN'T eat naturally--she did not ever want to "be kept alive like that " and she can't state otherwise at this point...So- #1 can someone PLEASE make me see why this case is" DIFFERENT" and #2 How do YOU support your patients and their loved ones when they are agonizing over this decision? ONe thing I always ask is "Did your loved one ever give you any idea of what they would want if something like this happened" and if they did then I advocate that stance for that pt as much possible.......I believe that death is the last great trip we'll go on and we should PLAN it as much as possible.The greatest GIFT we can give to our loved ones is an itinerary...........

[LydiaNN]

By witness I meant a second medical examiner appointed by the parents or the govenor not the general public. Such as the following:

www.newsmax.com

Friday, April 1, 2005 3:32 p.m. EST

Schindler Coroner Nixed From Terri Autopsy

Dr. Cyril H. Wecht, the well-known forensic pathologist and coroner of Allegheny County, Pa., told listeners of a morning radio show that he was denied permission to observe Terri Schiavo's autopsy, despite the wishes of her parents.

A medical examiner in Pinellas County, Fla., is conducting an autopsy that could help determine what Schiavo's state of consciousness was and whether she was abused by her husband, as the Schindlers allege.

Dr. Wecht, appearing on the syndicated "America's Morning Show with Quinn and Rose," based in Pittsburgh, said that an investigator working for the Schindlers' lawyers had called him on Thursday to see whether he would be agreeable to observing the autopsy.

Dr. Wecht told Quinn and Rose he was certainly agreeable to that, but that several hours later he received word that the medical examiner had declined to give him permission.

Dr. Wecht told the morning hosts that he considered this a mistake, according to Rose Somma Tennent. "He said that, if this were in [his] office, [he] would have said sure - not just because of professional courtesy, but because of the controversy sourrounding this case," Somma Tennet said.

Calls made during the show to the medical examiner's office were not returned.

The results from the autopsy are expected in a few weeks.

It is too bad that they didn't allow him there. He is one of the few people I can think of whose word I would trust implicitly.

[Tweety, BSN, RN]

It is too bad that they didn't allow him there. He is one of the few people I can think of whose word I would trust implicitly.

I don't think so. I applaud the Pinellas County ME for keeping a private affair private and not continuing the insanity of the media circus. I've attended talks by the ME here, getting CEU's, they've solved many murder mysteries. Let them do their job. If someone wants a second opinion, let that occur after they finish their job. They don't need any bystanders from up north looking over their shoulders.

The ME does not work for Mr. Shaivo. They are unbiased and profressional. Why is it fair for someone representing the Schindlers be there?

[LydiaNN]

"Up north"? Does that mean they would have consented if Dr. Wecht was from Birmingham, once known as "The Pittsburgh of the South"?

[~Kitty~]

The ME does not work for Mr. Shaivo. They are unbiased and profressional. Why is it fair for someone representing the Schindlers be there?

Maybe the ME golfs with Judge Greer, or Felos, or even Michael! I will remain suspicious if the autopsy conforms perfectly to Michael's crappola.

[NRSKarenRN, BSN, RN]

Wild speculation will get us no where. Maybe the ME already arranged for a second expert to be present as I would think a reasonable, logical ME would do in such a high profile case.................but we won't know till the results are in.

Two sides to every story---heard this side on ABC news this AM:

Schiavo's final moments described as "calm, peaceful, and gentle"

PINELLAS PARK-Terri Schiavo died with a stuffed kitten under her arm, her husband cradling her, spectacular floral displays giving her room a touch of glory, and insulated from the roar of the debate she had inspired just outside her hospice room doors and around the world, said attorney George Felos, who was present at the moment of death.

"This death was not for the siblings and not for the spouse and not for the parents. This was for Terri," said Felos, who represents Michael Schiavo, the woman's husband. "Mrs. Schiavo died a calm, peaceful, and gentle death."

But Felos had to defend Michael Schiavo's decision not to let Bobby Schindler and Suzanne Vitadamo visit with the woman at the time of death. Terri Schiavo's parents, who found it increasingly difficult to see their daughter as she neared death, were not near the hospice at the time of death.

Felos said his client was alarmed at a "dispute" that hospice officials said had occurred between Bobby Schindler and the police when the brother was asked to leave the room shortly before Terri Schiavo's death.

"She had the right to have her last and final moments on this earth be experienced by a spirit of love and not of acrimony," Felos said at a news conference that Michael Schiavo did not attend. "Mr. Schiavo was not going to permit a potentially explosive situation knowing that there was just a dispute with a law-enforcement officer."...

....At one point, her breathing became particularly labored, but a hospice worker repositioned her and the breathing became easier....

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/content/local_news/epaper/2005/03/31/schiavo_final_moments.html

More:

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/US/03/31/schiavo.deathbed/

[NurseFirst]

Ah, those of silver-tongue (Felos).

I'm sorry, but Terri Schiavo has been a victim of hospice abuse.

You are supposed to be terminally-ill (to die within 6 mos) in order to obtain hospice services, and she was not. :angryfire

Folks may want to consider this article of an RN, albeit a Catholic RN, about

euthanasia in this country:

http://www.catholictradition.org/targeted.htm

It's easy to think of withdrawing support when we decide someone no longer has a "quality of life"; the only question is--what might it take for someone to decide that that person is us, say, when we have been over-medicated?

NurseFirst

Wild speculation will get us no where. Maybe the ME already arranged for a second expert to be present as I would think a reasonable, logical ME would do in such a high profile case.................but we won't know till the results are in.

Two sides to every story---heard this side on ABC news this AM:

Schiavo's final moments described as "calm, peaceful, and gentle"

PINELLAS PARK-Terri Schiavo died with a stuffed kitten under her arm, her husband cradling her, spectacular floral displays giving her room a touch of glory, and insulated from the roar of the debate she had inspired just outside her hospice room doors and around the world, said attorney George Felos, who was present at the moment of death.

"This death was not for the siblings and not for the spouse and not for the parents. This was for Terri," said Felos, who represents Michael Schiavo, the woman's husband. "Mrs. Schiavo died a calm, peaceful, and gentle death."

But Felos had to defend Michael Schiavo's decision not to let Bobby Schindler and Suzanne Vitadamo visit with the woman at the time of death. Terri Schiavo's parents, who found it increasingly difficult to see their daughter as she neared death, were not near the hospice at the time of death.

Felos said his client was alarmed at a "dispute" that hospice officials said had occurred between Bobby Schindler and the police when the brother was asked to leave the room shortly before Terri Schiavo's death.

"She had the right to have her last and final moments on this earth be experienced by a spirit of love and not of acrimony," Felos said at a news conference that Michael Schiavo did not attend. "Mr. Schiavo was not going to permit a potentially explosive situation knowing that there was just a dispute with a law-enforcement officer."...

....At one point, her breathing became particularly labored, but a hospice worker repositioned her and the breathing became easier....

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/content/local_news/epaper/2005/03/31/schiavo_final_moments.html

More:

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/US/03/31/schiavo.deathbed/

[Spidey's mom, ADN, BSN, RN]

I read that Bobby Schindler was asked to leave so the hospice nurses could assess Terri . . . .now, that I do not get and I can see that if his sister was close to death that he wouldn't want to leave.

We don't ask the family to leave when their loved one is near death so we can "assess" the patient. If we need to assess, we do it with the family there. They can leave if they wish but we don't ask them to leave - especially if death is imminent.

That seems weird to me.

steph

[Tweety, BSN, RN]

"Up north"? Does that mean they would have consented if Dr. Wecht was from Birmingham, once known as "The Pittsburgh of the South"?

:rotfl: :rotfl:

Well from where we are everywhere is "up north". (Wonder why I phrased it like that? There's a bumper sticker here that says "I don't care how you did it up north" LOL)

[Tweety, BSN, RN]

I read that Bobby Schindler was asked to leave so the hospice nurses could assess Terri . . . .now, that I do not get and I can see that if his sister was close to death that he wouldn't want to leave.

We don't ask the family to leave when their loved one is near death so we can "assess" the patient. If we need to assess, we do it with the family there. They can leave if they wish but we don't ask them to leave - especially if death is imminent.

That seems weird to me.

steph

It doesn't take that long to assess a patient and I see nothing wrong with them asking him to leave. I sometimes ask a family member to leave, especially if they are as volatile as he has been claimed to be. They might have wanted to check if she had a BM, bathe her or turn or reposition her while they were at it. Don't be so quick to judge my friend, there are times to include the family and times to ask them to leave. Sometimes a stressed family member appreciates getting up to stretch, get some coffee, or take a little break which they wouldn't take otherwise. Granted, if a patient is taking their last few breaths that's not the time to ask them to leave, anyway what is there to assess at that point.

[Tweety, BSN, RN]

Ah, those of silver-tongue (Felos).

I'm sorry, but Terri Schiavo has been a victim of hospice abuse.

You are supposed to be terminally-ill (to die within 6 mos) in order to obtain hospice services, and she was not. :angryfire

NurseFirst

Terri was not in hospice until they pulled the tube the first time, at which time she became a hospice patient and was moved to this facility.

After they reinserted the tube, hospice tried to place her back in a nursing home and no one would take her. So they kept her for the duration. It wasn't that hospice was abusing her by keeping her as a hospice patient, the case managers and social workers for hospice had a difficult time placing her during the time her feeding was back in.

[Tweety, BSN, RN]

Maybe the ME golfs with Judge Greer, or Felos, or even Michael! I will remain suspicious if the autopsy conforms perfectly to Michael's crappola.

I'm sure if the Schindlers don't get the answer they want to hear, they will ask for another autopsy and that is approopriate. The same way they asked for about 30 judges and multiple MDs to review their case and appeal after appeal after appeal.

I wonder how conclusive they can be after 15 years?

I would be just as suspicious as you are if the Schindlers hand-picked an M.E. however.

In the meantime, I'm giving the local M.E. the benefit of the doubt.

[UM Review RN, ASN, RN]

I applaud the Pinellas County ME for keeping a private affair private and not continuing the insanity of the media circus. I've attended talks by the ME here, getting CEU's, they've solved many murder mysteries. Let them do their job. If someone wants a second opinion, let that occur after they finish their job. They don't need any bystanders from up north looking over their shoulders.

The ME does not work for Mr. Shaivo. They are unbiased and profressional. Why is it fair for someone representing the Schindlers be there

Actually, I was thinking the same thing, Tweety. It offended me to see a suggestion that our ME could be corrupt or biased. Like we can't be professional, because we're down South or something. Like Northerners are more intelligent, less corruptible, "better." :angryfire

(And I'm a transplant!)

It likewise offended me to hear all these accusations that Michael caused Terri's condition. I'm so sure that if any wrongdoing had surfaced at any point before this, it would've been completely investigated.

Finally, like I said before, he's a nurse. Florida has one of the most rigorous BON regs in place for nursing candidates and for nurses. If you don't believe me, try to get your license recognized in Florida. It takes weeks, despite the nursing shortage.

This is because Florida has gotten more than its fair share of con artists and moochers coming here to soak up the sun and try to get a free ride. It is not easy to get started here for anyone without good skills and a college education and the community does--and should--view outsiders with an attitude of suspicion.

If the Schindlers lived in NYC or Chicago, would this business of an outside ME even come up? Nope. And it shouldn't have this time, either.

I'm sure not out to change anyone's mind. You'll always believe what you believe. But don't drag our ME's reputation through the mud. As Tweety said, we're locals and we have no quibble with the job they've done before. This won't be any different.

Even though I disagreed with this action to end Terri's life, it does no good to continue to re-argue the facts of the case. The facts are what they are. It does no good to continue to view the persons involved through the microscope of public opinion. This was already done by law enforcement, the medical community, and the judicial system.

If you're not personally satisfied that this has been done to the best of everyone's professional capacity, then I don't know what else to tell you except that all the finger-pointing in the world will not change what has already been decreed and done, and done publicly since the beginning of this case, years ago.

Most of the news articles relating to the progress of this case have been reported in detail in the St. Petersburg Times. Their archives are free and easily searched.

May she rest in peace.

May the family--all of them--take comfort in knowing that everything that could have been done, was done.

In the meantime, we as nurses need to get back to doing what we do best--and that is healing the wounds of our people.