Artificial feeding-Terri Schiavo

lpn3324 · Apr 2, 2005

The only reasons I can come up with, is #1 - her death was indeed peaceful, but it was a death, which is very uncomfortable to watch, and he was misinterpreting a normal death, for whatever reason. Terri being a brain damaged patient might have frequently became diaphoretic, as neuro patients do, and this might have been normal for her.
#2 - Hospice was already under fear from the family of hastening her death with two morphine suppositories and couldn't operate under their normal guidelines lest they be accused of murder, which we can thank the parents for that. Ironic that the parent may have had a part of play in her death being so uncomfortable.

Thank you Tweety,nobody else seems to remember Mr.Schindler ma,ing the statement that the hospice was medicating Terri to speed her death. One of the statements that was made by the family after her death was something about those people who were entrusted with her care having abandoned her,yet it was the hospice that was responsible for maintaing a sense of peace for all involved

lpn3324 · Apr 2, 2005

Of course they don't allow witnesses!
Why should they?!
Why should the disallowing of witnesses cause you to allege that our ME is corrupt?

baseline the autopsy is not being done at Michael's request or the Schindler's,it is state mandated. So why would there have to be any outside witnesses.

lpn3324 · Apr 2, 2005

Actually, I was thinking the same thing, Tweety. It offended me to see a suggestion that our ME could be corrupt or biased. Like we can't be professional, because we're down South or something. Like Northerners are more intelligent, less corruptible, "better." :angryfire
(And I'm a transplant!)
It likewise offended me to hear all these accusations that Michael caused Terri's condition. I'm so sure that if any wrongdoing had surfaced at any point before this, it would've been completely investigated.
Finally, like I said before, he's a nurse. Florida has one of the most rigorous BON regs in place for nursing candidates and for nurses. If you don't believe me, try to get your license recognized in Florida. It takes weeks, despite the nursing shortage.
On behalf of all the medical professioals here in the Sunshine state (transplanted or otherwise) thank you for standing up for our standards :) :) is is because Florida has gotten more than its fair share of con artists and moochers coming here to soak up the sun and try to get a free ride. It is not easy to get started here for anyone without good skills and a college education and the community does--and should--view outsiders with an attitude of suspicion.
If the Schindlers lived in NYC or Chicago, would this business of an outside ME even come up? Nope. And it shouldn't have this time, either.
I'm sure not out to change anyone's mind. You'll always believe what you believe. But don't drag our ME's reputation through the mud. As Tweety said, we're locals and we have no quibble with the job they've done before. This won't be any different.
Even though I disagreed with this action to end Terri's life, it does no good to continue to re-argue the facts of the case. The facts are what they are. It does no good to continue to view the persons involved through the microscope of public opinion. This was already done by law enforcement, the medical community, and the judicial system.
If you're not personally satisfied that this has been done to the best of everyone's professional capacity, then I don't know what else to tell you except that all the finger-pointing in the world will not change what has already been decreed and done, and done publicly since the beginning of this case, years ago.
Most of the news articles relating to the progress of this case have been reported in detail in the St. Petersburg Times. Their archives are free and easily searched.
May she rest in peace.
May the family--all of them--take comfort in knowing that everything that could have been done, was done.
In the meantime, we as nurses need to get back to doing what we do best--and that is healing the wounds of our people.

On behalf of all the medical professionals here in the sunshine state thank you standing up for our stanards.

Home Health Columnist / Guide · Apr 2, 2005

:Melody:

Thanks Angie O'Plasty (post #900) and Tweety over all for keeping the discussion on track and providing informative info cutting through some of the hype and hysteria such TV intense, media frenzy driven events evoke.

Re Hospice:

"At one point about 30 to 40 hospice workers, many of whom had stayed past their shifts, formed a circle around Terri Schiavo's body, Felos said. A hospice chaplain said a prayer, he said."

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/US/03/31/schiavo.deathbed/

Kudos to the hospice staff for the loving care they provided Terri and their ability to function under such intense scrutiny. Glad to see they were able to have some private time to aid in closure. Here's hoping management is able to provide supportive counciling to all as they destress from the public scrutiny and the Hospice Program will be able to viewed as a possitive place within the community.

Sending a heartfelt :heartbeat thank you to aid in their healing.

UM Review RN, ASN, RN · Apr 2, 2005

Thanks, Karen.

The Hospice of the Florida Suncoast is the best in the nation, IMO. I've learned so much about sensible, compassionate palliative care from their training.

Roland · Apr 2, 2005

Actually, I was thinking the same thing, Tweety. It offended me to see a suggestion that our ME could be corrupt or biased. Like we can't be professional, because we're down South or something. Like Northerners are more intelligent, less corruptible, "better." :angryfire
(And I'm a transplant!)
It likewise offended me to hear all these accusations that Michael caused Terri's condition. I'm so sure that if any wrongdoing had surfaced at any point before this, it would've been completely investigated.
Finally, like I said before, he's a nurse. Florida has one of the most rigorous BON regs in place for nursing candidates and for nurses. If you don't believe me, try to get your license recognized in Florida. It takes weeks, despite the nursing shortage.
This is because Florida has gotten more than its fair share of con artists and moochers coming here to soak up the sun and try to get a free ride. It is not easy to get started here for anyone without good skills and a college education and the community does--and should--view outsiders with an attitude of suspicion.
If the Schindlers lived in NYC or Chicago, would this business of an outside ME even come up? Nope. And it shouldn't have this time, either.
I'm sure not out to change anyone's mind. You'll always believe what you believe. But don't drag our ME's reputation through the mud. As Tweety said, we're locals and we have no quibble with the job they've done before. This won't be any different.
Even though I disagreed with this action to end Terri's life, it does no good to continue to re-argue the facts of the case. The facts are what they are. It does no good to continue to view the persons involved through the microscope of public opinion. This was already done by law enforcement, the medical community, and the judicial system.
If you're not personally satisfied that this has been done to the best of everyone's professional capacity, then I don't know what else to tell you except that all the finger-pointing in the world will not change what has already been decreed and done, and done publicly since the beginning of this case, years ago.
Most of the news articles relating to the progress of this case have been reported in detail in the St. Petersburg Times. Their archives are free and easily searched.
May she rest in peace.
May the family--all of them--take comfort in knowing that everything that could have been done, was done.
In the meantime, we as nurses need to get back to doing what we do best--and that is healing the wounds of our people.

I don't think that anyone is suggesting that your area is any more corrupt than anyplace else. I live in Indiana and just last week a local guy "with strong connections to the sheriff" didn't even get arrested even after he struck another car with a BAC of over .15 (it was a 3rd offense and I was on the EMS run). Our concerns mainly revolve around the fact that Mrs. Schiavo didn't have a terminal condition (unless you consider life to be a terminal condition with a higher case fatality rate than Ebola) and yet was in hospice care. Normally, hospice is reserved for those who have been diagnosed with less than six months to live. Also, it is my understanding based on statements from the Schindler's that Terri was not even allowed to be fed by mouth (perhaps you can clarify that as true or false having more personal experience). No ice chips, no sips of water ect.

Also, don't assume that if Michael S. had done something wrong that the system would have caught him. None of the court cases involving Mrs. Schiavo (and remember only the initial one with Judge Greer looked at the case facts all the rest simply reviewed her case to see if she got a fair trial on the initial case) dealt with the circumstances of her collaspe. Indeed, judge Greer is on record as saying it didn't matter given her current circumstances. Also many people who do "bad things" are highly capable in other areas. Of course in the end it doesn't matter criminally what Michael did or didn't do if it can't be proven in a court of law. Our legal system presumes innocence until proven guily. On the other hand the court of public opinion is not held to that same standard and we are free to make judgements as to his character based on his actions both in public and otherwise. Were I Michael (and innocent) I would want someone else to observe that autopsy (who was a professional) so as to clear my name with the maximum of credibility. Finally, I would think that the fact that he is a nurse would only highlight the importance of ascertaining the truth on this matter given that he continues to be involved in patient care.

bugsbee · Apr 2, 2005

Roland

I have a problem with Terri being in hospice for so long too. I understand she had medicaid so we as tax payers paid the bill as well. I always thought hospice was for the terminally ill patients with 6 to 12 months to live. But yet both sides had money for litigation which I'm sure was not cheap.

Roland · Apr 2, 2005

Roland
I have a problem with Terri being in hospice for so long too. I understand she had medicaid so we as tax payers paid the bill as well. I always thought hospice was for the terminally ill patients with 6 to 12 months to live. But yet both sides had money for litigation which I'm sure was not cheap.

Actually, I think that her trust fund paid most of the expenses (from the 2.5 million dollar award that Michael sought so that he could take care of Terri the rest of her life) and that the hospice donated the rest (George Felos sat on the board of directors at the Woodside Hospice). Remember also that the parents offered to take care of Mrs. Schiavo themselves and pay all of the expenses. In addition, groups such as the listeners of the Glenn Beck radio show http://www.glennbeck.com offered to pay Michael almost seven million dollars to give up custody of Terri (I personally pledged $200.00 to the effort). At one point the Schindlers had even offered Michael $700,000.00 to give up custody of Terri to them. Either he loved her very much and really did want her wishes to be carried out OR he had something to hide/ and or a vendetta to see fufilled. I wonder if Glenn Beck could be persuaded to offer Michael a million dollars (from listener pledges) to take a polygraph test from a reputable examiner. I had to take them in the Navy and they are no big deal. It would certainly lesson my concerns.

LydiaNN · Apr 2, 2005

I haven't seen anyone suggest that the healthcare standards in Florida are lower than they are anywhere else. It is certainly not what I was getting at when I said it is too bad they didn't choose to let Cyril Wecht observe the autopsy. Sometimes my preference to be concise works against me, if I don't elaborate enough to make my point. What I was getting at is that I would have allowed an observer, not as a suggestion that I thought the FL authorities were incapable of doing their job, but as a preventive measure so that the Schindlers wouldn't have yet another thing to question. Yes, I did say that I trust Dr. Wecht implicitly, but only because of my familiarity with the quality of his work, not because he's from Pittsburgh and only people from Pittsburgh (or anywhere else) should be trusted.

allnurses Guide · Apr 2, 2005

I read an article in the paper this morning that Michael "plans to cremate her remains and bury the ashes without telling his inlaws when or where".

Tweety - I completely understand having the family leave to do comfort care when you think there is incontinence . . maybe that was it. But she died about 15 minutes after her brother left . . . I dunno - I think at that stage in the whole sorry mess that her brother might have been a bit testy due to the stress of watching his sister die.

I'm in the midst of a family mess myself with my grandmother dying - you would think adults could put aside their differences long enough to have a funeral without anger . . . but no, my grandma's kids (my mom and uncles) HATE EACH OTHER. I'm thinking the cousins need to take over - we all get along ok.

steph

Tweety, BSN, RN · Apr 2, 2005

baseline the autopsy is not being done at Michael's request or the Schindler's,it is state mandated. So why would there have to be any outside witnesses.

Really? I thought it was requested by the family (both Mr. Shaivo and the Schindlers). Very few hospice patients get an autopsy without the requests from the family. But I can see why the ME would order a mandatory autopsy in this case.

UM Review RN, ASN, RN · Apr 2, 2005

I don't think that anyone is suggesting that your area is any more corrupt than anyplace else. I live in Indiana and just last week a local guy "with strong connections to the sheriff" didn't even get arrested even after he struck another car with a BAC of over .15 (it was a 3rd offense and I was on the EMS run). Our concerns mainly revolve around the fact that Mrs. Schiavo didn't have a terminal condition (unless you consider life to be a terminal condition with a higher case fatality rate than Ebola) and yet was in hospice care. Normally, hospice is reserved for those who have been diagnosed with less than six months to live. Also, it is my understanding based on statements from the Schindler's that Terri was not even allowed to be fed by mouth (perhaps you can clarify that as true or false having more personal experience). No ice chips, no sips of water ect.
Also, don't assume that if Michael S. had done something wrong that the system would have caught him. None of the court cases involving Mrs. Schiavo (and remember only the initial one with Judge Greer looked at the case facts all the rest simply reviewed her case to see if she got a fair trial on the initial case) dealt with the circumstances of her collaspe. Indeed, judge Greer is on record as saying it didn't matter given her current circumstances. Also many people who do "bad things" are highly capable in other areas. Of course in the end it doesn't matter criminally what Michael did or didn't do if it can't be proven in a court of law. Our legal system presumes innocence until proven guily. On the other hand the court of public opinion is not held to that same standard and we are free to make judgements as to his character based on his actions both in public and otherwise. Were I Michael (and innocent) I would want someone else to observe that autopsy (who was a professional) so as to clear my name with the maximum of credibility. Finally, I would think that the fact that he is a nurse would only highlight the importance of ascertaining the truth on this matter given that he continues to be involved in patient care.

As I said before, I am not trying to change your mind about what you believe, Roland. I'm just trying to comprehend all of the things you're saying outright as well as implying.

So let me make the attempt to restate what you've already said:

You believe that Mike Schiavo attempted to murder his wife and ultimately prevailed and succeeded. He was that much smarter than all those investigators, yet so much sicker psychologically than we imagine. He has been under close scrutiny at his job, in his schooling, visiting his wife, and at his home over the past 15 years, but he was so much more clever than all those people?

You're certainly entitled to your opinion.

You imply that corruption in Hospice, the courts, the governor's office, the police, the hospital ER, the legislature and in the Medical Examiner's office caused the facts of the case to be completely disregarded.

Quite a stretch, even if you're really cynical about authority. Though I sincerely think you owe us Floridians an apology, just on general principles, after having bashed nearly all of our institutions.

You believe that Terri Schiavo was able to take in food and water by mouth, based on the medical expertise (or unrealistic hopes) of her parents. When she hadn't eaten or drunk anything in 15 years. When in fact, had anyone succeeded in giving her that symbolic glass of water that those children were arrested trying to serve, she would probably have then died from aspiration pneumonia.

But back to what you've been saying: Have I got it right, or did I miss anything?

In short, you feel that the law failed Terri and her family because she didn't die the way you approve of morally. Which made you angry enough to spew false accusations and speculate negatively about everyone even remotely connected to this case.

Is that what your posts are really all about at this point?

Because it does look that way from this corner.

And if that is truly the way you feel, I can respect that. But you need to understand that you are saying some things that are sounding a little farfetched at this point, IMO, and I hope you can understand and respect the rest of us by refraining from accusing all those people of conspiring to kill an innocent person.

OK?