Another Nurse on Nurse hostility story

Nurses General Nursing

Published

So very frustrated at a recent experience that I had at my job. I work in a busy ED and occasionally we receive patients who are "referred" from an outside urgent care. I have personally received phone calls from a particular urgent care informing us that there is a patient coming over and they continue on by providing ALL protected information about this patient, after they have discharged them, and why they cannot treat them there. It is important to note that the urgent care completes their care of the patient and then discharges them from their system, the patient leaves and may or may not elect to come to our emergency department. The last phone call that I received from this urgent care went about the same as usual but at the end of the conversation the nurse on the other end of the phone call says and what is your name. I paused, as this is not a common request and stated, I have no problem providing my name, heck I answer the phone stating my name, but I must clarify that there is no RN-to-RN report occurring here as this is not a transfer and there is no transfer of medical authority and/or medical accountability between facilities, additionally providing all of the protected information about the patient could constitute a violation of HIPAA as we do not have a need to know since it is not a transfer. I brought this up to the nurse due to her requesting my name as it made me think she was charting it somewhere, which really seems like a bad idea for HER and HER ORGANIZATION to be documenting an inappropriate release of patient information.

So... you can probably imagine how this was received. The nurse didn't say anything to me regarding the issue, but was actually agreeable stating oh yes we are just providing info on the patient (smiles and warm fuzzies here), phone hangs up no big deal, and by the way the patient never came to our ED. Fast forward about two weeks I receive a phone call from my director stating she has a disturbing email about a phone call that occurred with an urgent care. For the sake of the readers time I will summarize, the email stated I did not want to give my name in addition to me be terse and maybe rude (can't remember), and the final sentence stated "should we not be sending patients to your ed any longer as you don't want info on them", a basic threat to pull business away. You, the reader, should know that I work for a for profit hospital and this last sentence had all the teeth to ensure my director would act, and act she did. I get a call, she is super matter of fact, basically telling me to just listen and don't say anything back to those who are calling us regardless of appropriateness as customer service is our goal and... well you can fill in the rest.

I am disturbed to my nursing core. I have been a nurse now for about 6 years, to some thats nothing and others thats a good amount of time. I haven't seen a lot of malicious behavior like this and I think it is why I am struggling with it. I guess my issue is when nurses cannot listen to constructive criticism without personalizing it and making it about the person communicating it. I get my directors response, she MUST act on this as it is threat to community business relationship and thats to be expected. What I don't get is the fabrication of scenario to elicit a response from my leadership, it really feels icky. I do know that the nurse I was speaking with has been a nurse for about two years, I offer this for context. I assure you that I was nice and pleasant in my conversation with the nurse, and cannot understand why she would paint our conversation in such a way. I can only assume her intellect was offended and she "reacted", instead of considering what she was actually doing, violating protected information (albeit trying to be helpful). I read a post on here by Riseupandnurse that stated due to nurses having to take whatever is dished out by admin, physicians, patients, families, etc, that there is a great deal of free floating anxiety and hostility and sometimes finds its release valve on an unsuspecting victim. Additionally, I feel that there is a great deal of insecurity that we all deal with and sometimes instead of recognizing this and overcoming how it makes us feel then learning from it, we fall victim to self preservation and restructure reality in order to ensure we are righteous and the other, perceived adversary, is wrong and we demonize them and their actions or intended message. When this occurs it is a hugely flawed weakness in psyche, that ultimately is self defeating and greatly inhibits personal growth.

I guess I am posting this for therapeutic purposes, and maybe some stimulating conversation can result.

Ok, so why are you glazing over the portion of the story where the other nurse lied? I made an error in regards to HIPAA violation. OK. ADDRESSED. Moving on to the point of the post regarding infighting, and you did not answer the other questions regarding report. My actions certainly were not inappropriate.

Ok, so why are you glazing over the portion of the story where the other nurse lied? I made an error in regards to HIPAA violation. OK. ADDRESSED. Moving on to the point of the post regarding infighting, and you did not answer the other questions regarding report. My actions certainly were not inappropriate.

I just re-read your OP and I am not seeing "the lie" that the other nurse told. Please tell me where in your OP it is written.

I already answered you that I believe JKL33 addressed the situation in her post #4.

I don't put it past the two entities to have made a big deal out of this that neither nurse intended.

Happens all the time. Nurse #1 goes back to her employer and says, "Hey, is what we're doing okay? Nurse #2 at World's Best ED asked me about it the other night and I just want to confirm."

Personal outrage and affront are taken by Director #1, who then calls NM #2 and says, "How dare your people try to tell my people anything!"

OR

No one has taken personal offense but NM #2 thinks this would be a great opportunity to make sure no nurse ever feels any adult-like power whatsoever (to, you know, have reasonable conversations with other adults).

I actually think one of these two things is the most likely scenario!

Specializes in Psych, Corrections, Med-Surg, Ambulatory.
I don't put it past the two entities to have made a big deal out of this that neither nurse intended.

Happens all the time. Nurse #1 goes back to her employer and says, "Hey, is what we're doing okay? Nurse #2 at World's Best ED asked me about it the other night and I just want to confirm."

Personal outrage and affront are taken by Director #1, who then calls NM #2 and says, "How dare your people try to tell my people anything!"

OR

No one has taken personal offense but NM #2 thinks this would be a great opportunity to make sure no nurse ever feels any adult-like power whatsoever (to, you know, have reasonable conversations with other adults).

I actually think one of these two things is the most likely scenario!

This does sound the likeliest. The UC nurse ran it by her manager to make sure she wasn't really violating HIPAA. The UC manager took umbrage and called the ED manager to clarify (or complain). The ED manager salivated at the thought of ripping into a nurse. (Some managers I've worked for would have been rubbing their hands with glee.) And the OP gets slimed.

Been there. Done that.

Specializes in Pediatrics Retired.
This does sound the likeliest. The UC nurse ran it by her manager to make sure she wasn't really violating HIPAA. The UC manager took umbrage and called the ED manager to clarify (or complain). The ED manager salivated at the thought of ripping into a nurse. (Some managers I've worked for would have been rubbing their hands with glee.) And the OP gets slimed.

Been there. Done that.

AYE! The upside down wedding cake "resting" on the shoulders of those out there swinging the hammers; those that don't "produce" anything except flapping their gums to justify their position.

Not true. I answer the phone with my name. The point was that report was not being given. I, the OP, have the right to call into question when an attempt at legal transfer of authority and responsibility is taking place inappropriately. And nurses should be able to have a conversation that doesn't result in sending an email, largely falsified to elicit a response, due to an emotional response. Susie2310, the conversation was not heated, and the scenario outlined in the email was not accurate by any means. My response was completely respectful and appropriate, actually if it were a legal RN-to-RN report i still have the right to refuse it. So where exactly to you see my behavior to be inappropriate? Asking for my name merely triggered me to clarify that report is not being given, I could care less if the other nurse knew my name.

You don't have the right to refuse an RN to RN report. That's above your pay-grade. Settle down. You have the right to follow protocol and consult YOUR TEAM. Look you're upset because your manager and honestly the other RN with 2 years experience is right and your overreacted. Don't get bogged down in the finite details you can't see the big picture.

My understanding was that the nurse was probably rather shocked by the OP's inappropriate response to her when she had appropriately asked for his/her name, and was trying to diffuse the situation as gracefully as possible, having made the decision mentally to refer the situation to the appropriate administrators, which ultimately resulted in the OP's director contacting the OP about the situation. I can't say that I would have done anything differently if I had been her.

Sorry, I meant to say: "defuse the situation," not "diffuse the situation."

Happens all the time. Nurse #1 goes back to her employer and says, "Hey, is what we're doing okay? Nurse #2 at World's Best ED asked me about it the other night and I just want to confirm."

Personal outrage and affront are taken by Director #1, who then calls NM #2 and says, "How dare your people try to tell my people anything!"

This totally happened to me last week. Fortunately it all got worked out and I was exonerated.

Specializes in Emergency, Telemetry, Transplant.

First of all, if (IF) the nurse at the UC reported you with trumped up accusations, then, yet, it was probably inappropriate.

One thing that I wonder...what if various ED's are complaining to this Urgent Care that they keep sending pt's over (some fairly critical?...it's happened!) without report? This nurse's NM is on this nurse's case about making sure to call for any patients going to the ED. To CYA, this nurse wants to get your name. No biggie to ask. Happens to me all the time that I get to the end of report and I can't remember what nurse I was talking to, so I ask him/her to state his/her name again (in other words, just because you gave your name at the beginning, it does not mean she is just trying to be a pain by asking again).

I'm not an expert in all the small details in HIPAA, so I won't try to enter the discussion about the HIPAA appropriateness of this conversation, but when I was charge RN in the ED, I appreciated a heads up. It probably rubbed that UC nurse the wrong way that she was being "lectured" on the appropriateness of calling report when she is being mandated by her actual manager to call report. I agree with others that it probably got blown out of proportion by her and/or your NM.

Specializes in Critical Care.

As JKL pointed out, I think you've confused Licensed Independent Provider with Health Care Provider in considering a clinic nurse to ER nurse report to be a HIPAA violation, it's not a HIPAA violation and is should really be expected. It's not unusual for me to get a patient coming to the ER who says they went to an urgent care clinic or "Freestanding ER" and they did some sort of test and were told to go directly to ER, with often no more information than that. The fact that the clinic nurse called you is commendable and not at all legally prohibited, giving them attitude for doing exactly what they should be doing is probably the only thing in the story that could count as 'hostility'.

Specializes in Ambulatory Care-Family Medicine.

When I worked in a clinic as a LVN I would call the ER triage nurse anytime we had to send a patient to the ER. A lot of patients did not want to have an ambulance drive them to the ER due to cost so they had a family/friend drive them.

We would print of results of any testing that we did and give it to the patient to give be to ER (even though it seldomly actually got handed to the ER staff). We would also call and give report to the charge nurse or triage nurse on duty. The ER was not associated with our clinic so we had no way of communicating results and concerns to the ER other than to call them. By us calling the ER staff knew exactly why we were sending the patient to the hospital and what their physicians concerns were (our physicians did not have admitting privileges). It's better than the patient walking in to triage and saying "I don't know why I am here, my doctor told me to come here" and then the triage nurse has to start the guessing game.

Specializes in Emergency, Telemetry, Transplant.
It's better than the patient walking in to triage and saying "I don't know why I am here, my doctor told me to come here" and then the triage nurse has to start the guessing game.

Exactly! Patient's have a habit of signing in "Doctor referred to ER" (or "Urgent Care sent," etc.). If I am the triage nurse, they are going to go after the chest pain and the SOB. If UC or a clinic calls and says there is a strong concern for PE or that chest X ray showed a pneumo (the latter did actually occur and the pt refused ambulance transport to the ED), they would be going ahead of much of the other stuff.

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