Gender descriptions in my MSN text

[nursesail]

I noticed that one of the texts I am reading tends to discriminate in gender. I was reading an article and everyone in there was a "she". In the past, most articles I have read trade off with a "he" here and a "she" there. Has anyone else had this problem?

[leslie :-D]

he pronoun wars and other discussions of language can certainly become quite arcane and ridiculous. I belong to another site that acts as a forum for many trans- or other-gendered people. The threads on the gender theory forum mostly make my head hurt and my eyes bleed. I really can't follow most of it.

However, the discussion is important in its own right.

It can't be dismissed as "PC" by those who are condemned to "telling it slant" because the language has no words for one's reality. For us, it's often about emotional and spiritual survival.

ah...from that perspective heron, of course i agree with you.

when i state these pronouns are being used generically, i wasn't thinking of those who may be transgendered.

in that case, of course it would be more of a sensitive and even, literal issue.

i've mentioned before, words to me, are pretty much meaningless.

yet, and ironically, what i wouldn't give to have such mastery over the english language.:)

i very much admire those who are gifted w/articulate expression.

but even then, one doesn't know if they are "saying what they mean, and meaning what they say".

words are only a piece of the equation.

i always fall back on one's perspective, for that is one's reality and is as unique as the thoughts behind them.

leslie

[heron, ASN, RN]

when i state these pronouns are being used generically, i wasn't thinking of those who may be transgendered.

leslie[/quote

EXACTLY ... :yeah:I think she's got it!!!

I edited your post heavily and hope I didn't put words in your mouth you may not mean, but this statement exemplifies precisely what I mean about the difficulty of thinking about something when we don't have a word for it. You know about transfolk, but didn't think of them because the pronouns are binary male/female. Other-gendered people are linguistically, therefore culturally, invisible. Not a huge issue for males and females, but a potentially devastating reality for the other-gendered. See what I'm getting at?

The dynamics of language fascinate me ... ideas and language and the ways they shift and change.

But then, I love watching clouds in a storm and little sparkly things, too ...

[Multicollinearity, BSN, RN]

Interesting, Heron. I hadn't thought of a transgendered person's perspective on this.

While I think it's pointless to let this interfere with studies when reading a textbook, I still think it's important to understand the importance of language, understand how our language shapes our perception and culture, and to know that there are many other languages that do not default to one gender when discussing both genders. That's all. It doesn't have to be the way the English language is.

~ Multi (BTW, I used to get angry in jr. high when teachers would refer to "he" and "him" as a default for everyone. I remember telling my teachers ALL about my displeasure and the need for a gender neutral personal pronoun, LOL!)

[Bree124, BSN, RN]

My first degree is in communication, and as a former journalist I am well aware of the limitations of the English language.

And Heron - I wrote several articles about the GLBT group in our town. Yes, it was difficult to try to come up with the perfect wording that wouldn't exclude or offend anyone.

The point I was trying to make in my original post was stated much more concisely by someone a few posts after me - that there are many articles/texts/journals that use "he" or "she" consistently throughout simply because it is too confusing to switch back and forth between the two. Especially if you are trying to alternate to be ESPECIALLY fair -

"The carpenter is frustrated that he can't get the wood out of the truck. This has always been a problem for her, due to his short height."

But in all seriousness, a gender neutral personal pronoun would obviously fix the problem... but in the meantime, I think we could try to be more aware of the message the article or text is trying to get across, and less aware of whether we think it sounds perfect or not.

[heron, ASN, RN]

My first degree is in communication, and as a former journalist I am well aware of the limitations of the English language.

And Heron - I wrote several articles about the GLBT group in our town. Yes, it was difficult to try to come up with the perfect wording that wouldn't exclude or offend anyone.

The point I was trying to make in my original post was stated much more concisely by someone a few posts after me - that there are many articles/texts/journals that use "he" or "she" consistently throughout simply because it is too confusing to switch back and forth between the two. Especially if you are trying to alternate to be ESPECIALLY fair -

"The carpenter is frustrated that he can't get the wood out of the truck. This has always been a problem for her, due to his short height."

But in all seriousness, a gender neutral personal pronoun would obviously fix the problem... but in the meantime, I think we could try to be more aware of the message the article or text is trying to get across, and less aware of whether we think it sounds perfect or not.

It's already been acknowledged, by me and others, that attempts to be gender non-specific are awkward and distracting to read ... and often beside the point of the actual text. I think we all can agree that the first goal of a textbook writer should be clarity and they have to make choices about word usage.

The questions came up as to why it mattered ... and was blown off as PC - an utterly dismissive term (that actually originated on the radical feminist left ... who then coined the term PI to make fun of anyone who would actually use "politically correct" as a serious critique).

Multi and I were speaking to that question.

No snark or personal disrespect intended.

[heron, ASN, RN]

BTW, speaking of alternating pronouns, there's a little-known novel by Andrew Greeley ... a Jesuit priest ... that alternates He and She when referring to the Deity. Now there's some cognitive dissonance for ya!

[FireStarterRN, BSN, RN]

The whole idea of God as 'he' is sooooo based on the extreme patriarchal structure of the culture of the Hebrew people who invented monotheism. It's unfortunate. Previously human societies also had female deities. I'm glad that the Western world has somewhat come to its senses in that regard.

That said I think attempts to make the Bible gender neutral destroys much of the literary quality of the passages and isn't true to the cultural context in which they were written.

[Tait, MSN, RN]

We were supposed to read those books? Hell, I just looked at the pictures and practiced on unsuspecting roommates and boyfriends.

Tait

:chuckle

[heron, ASN, RN]

The whole idea of God as 'he' is sooooo based on the extreme patriarchal structure of the culture of the Hebrew people who invented monotheism. It's unfortunate. Previously human societies also had female deities. I'm glad that the Western world has somewhat come to its senses in that regard.

That said I think attempts to make the Bible gender neutral destroys much of the literary quality of the passages and isn't true to the cultural context in which they were written.

Not being Christian, I'm not familiar with the most recent versions of the bible ... but I have seen a little bit of new translations and attempts to modernize the language. I agree, the language is flat and adds nothing to understanding. The poetry is gone.

The book to which I was referring in my last post was not the Bible, it was a novel. Andy Greeley was a Jesuit who attempted to teach Catholic spiritual concepts through story-telling. His work was controversial in its day. Personally, I enjoyed a lot of his stuff.

Having totally derailed this thread ... I apologize to the OP and wonder if the original question was ever answered?

[Bortaz, MSN, RN]

Star Trek used 'hir'.

[talaxandra]

I often use "s/he" in academic writing, and have used "tey" (the gender neutral singular pronoun of "they") in the past.

[Bortaz, MSN, RN]

I often use "s/he" in academic writing, and have used "tey" (the gender neutral singular pronoun of "they") in the past.

You just misspelled 'they', and didn't want to admit it, didn't you?