Forced retirement for nurses?

jsteine1 · Aug 29, 2005

Before I go on......please understand....I am not trying to say anything bad about older nurses........Absolutely no disrespect intended!...We will all be there someday.
We have three nurses on our unit. All older than 60 yrs of age. They consistently leave things in a mess.
No flames coming. Sounds like they are super-dedicated and an asset, but like anyone else whose training may have been markedly different from todays grads, need additional support. Your issue I believe is with the facility and that they have not accomodated to support these older professionals. The failure here is to acknowledge and develop a plan of correction for these nurses so that they can succeed. How would you feel about asking to have a peer improvement kind of meeting and just generally discuss error rates, paper work deficiencies and all else that you may have noticed. Include everyone available in the meeting of course. You know the old saying: if the shoe fits, wear it".This would be a compassionate, non threatening and hopefully effective way to address the accountabilities of everyone on the team and hopefully, the 3 nurses in question will respond positively in the quality of their work.

**RosesrReder, BSN, MSN, RN** · Aug 29, 2005

You have a valid concern, but the question is what has the facility you work in done to help these nurses? Is there extra help, are they being overloaded (lets face it we slow down with age) but the experience and knowledge these "wise"women have is priceless. Is the facility accomodating them in any other way? or are they just pushing them aside? Is there extra training to keep them up to date?

Maybe they could be given the opportunity to do "lighter" work and they should understand. :)

Needless to say, most ppl now days cannot just get up and retire at 60 or 65. They must continue to earn a living and we shoud facilitate that for them.

jsteine1 · Aug 29, 2005

You have a valid concern, but the question is what has the facility you work in done to help these nurses? Is there extra help, are they being overloaded (lets face it we slow down with age) but the experience and knowledge these "wise"women have is priceless. Is the facility accomodating them in any other way? or are they just pushing them aside? Is there extra training to keep them up to date?
Maybe they could be given the opportunity to do "lighter" work and they should understand. :)
Needless to say, most ppl now days cannot just get up and retire at 60 or 65. They must continue to earn a living and we shoud facilitate that for them.

JG: Its unlikely that any institution would be in good stead legally(reverse descrimination) or even as a practical matter sensible, to offer a lighter caseload. I agree and stated in my post, the failure of the facility to manage this situation is the problem. I suspect that the issues have less to do with age or physical ability and more to do with what was considered ok by standards that long precede issues of risk management, a litigious society, the criticality of documentation and its affect on licensing, certifications and reimbursement. Im not much younger than the ladies she references and for one example, No one ever made decisions, including the doctors, using reimbursement or a survey requirement or a JCAHO certification to drive process and accountability when I started working. I do think that these nurses absolutely must step up to the plate and perform at a level with their peers. However, no one can ever expect them to if they have no awareness that there is a problem. Once articulated clearly, examples provided, training if needed, they are on their own. The med error situation is of great concern and should be to that facility. Fear of turnover of staff is no excuse for bad patient care. I think we're all on the same page on this one!

UM Review RN, ASN, RN · Aug 29, 2005

I think that idea might lead to an age discrimination suit.

However, if you feel these nurses are a danger to the patients, and you've gone to your manager and no action has been taken, write each incident up as it happens to Risk Management.

Young or old, staff nurses need to be made aware of errors and counseled regarding them.

jsteine1 · Aug 29, 2005

I think that idea might lead to an age discrimination suit.
However, if you feel these nurses are a danger to the patients, and you've gone to your manager and no action has been taken, write each incident up as it happens to Risk Management.
Young or old, staff nurses need to be made aware of errors and counseled regarding them.

Absolutely. Agree on all. A dear friend is the DON of a very Fine LTC with a subacute unit. More than a third of her licensed staff are in the seventies! They have the cleanest state survey results I have ever seen.

She holds them accountable like anyone else "or else" as she should. Being firm and consistent has lead the nurses to "self regulate", if you will. She said that they are independently asking to reduce their hours over time or plan a retirement date with the facilities' needs in mind. Good management of a potentially touchy scenario!

Fiona59 · Aug 29, 2005

I've worked with some "retired" nurses who come back as casual staff when needed. The majority are great, but here's the catch. They will only work in their comfort zone. The casual pool where I work ensures that every casual hired can work two units and given orientation to each unit. They too, will come in at the drop of a hat. The retirees will only accept shifts that they want on their "old" unit. This results in newer hires only getting onto these units once in a blue moon, so our skills on that unit are going down the drain.

These women are all on full hospital pension, collecting Canada Pension, and top casual rates. I'd love to have a chance to pay income tax on those yearly earnings....

Judee Smudee, ADN, RN · Aug 29, 2005

Before I go on......please understand....I am not trying to say anything bad about older nurses........Absolutely no disrespect intended!...We will all be there someday.
We have three nurses on our unit. All older than 60 yrs of age. They consistently leave things in a mess. Consistently make medication errors (mostly errors of omission). Things are frequently "forgotten" like consents are not gotten for blood transfusions, assessments not done nor any charting for an entire shift.
I worry that someday their "ineptness" might end up causing a death or some other sentinel event. Reporting things to the manager is useless. The three of them will come in at the drop of a hat and pull 4-8 hrs of OT so they are a "warm body". Who cares if that "warm body" is actually capable of doing the job or not? Just as long as they are in "the count" and the staffing ratios look good. I say that this is dangerous as all get out.
Now here is where I might get flamed. Let me re-iterate...absolutely no disrespect intended..........
I think that there should be some kind of a test that older nurses should have to take in order to be able to continue to practice nursing. Just as I think that once we turn 60, we all should have to take a road test every two years in order to keep our driver's licenses. I know that most would say that this is age discrimination. I don't think that the safety of people in this world should be jeopardized just so there is no "age discrimination". Please know that when I get to that age, I would expect the same treatment (i.e. having to take some sort of practical test or road test in order to keep my licenses).
Ok......flame away. I can take it.

It is the term forced retirement I don't like. These people need health insurance and food and shelter just like anyone else. If you are 60 at the moment you have to work till age 66 to get SSI. Believe me I was chased out early by an unsuportive enviroment and it ain't easy getting by on my tiny pension. Why forced retirement? Why not reeducation and review?

tntrn, ASN, RN · Aug 29, 2005

If it were a federal regulation there could be no age discrimination suit. Professional pilots can not be in command of a jet liner after their 60th birthday and that includes the day of their birthday. It was thought, years ago when that regulation was made, that they'd be too old, have slow reaction times and a bunch of other stuff. Today---well, there are arguments on both sides.

What I'd really rather see is a rule, law or regulation of some kind that limits how many consecutive hours a nurse can work, and how many consecutive shifts as well. There have been nurses on all nurses who have bragged about doing 60 12-hour shifts in a row. That is just crazy and certainly cannot be safe for anybody concerned.

As far as age goes, those nurses you speak about may be just a warm body, but we have young nurses who don't seem to know what I & O means and therefore don't do it unless you make them. I don't think it's an age thing so much as they are allowed to get away with holding down the spot.

jsteine1 · Aug 29, 2005

It is the term forced retirement I don't like. These people need health insurance and food and shelter just like anyone else. If you are 60 at the moment you have to work till age 66 to get SSI. Believe me I was chased out early by an unsuportive enviroment and it ain't easy getting by on my tiny pension. Why forced retirement? Why not reeducation and review?

Thankyou! A person would have to be very young to even consider the forced retirement of another without benefit of re-ed and review as you suggest. I was hoping the thinking had moved away from the "throw-away"

philosophy towards the older or less physically able. If you really want to get through a shift successfully lets say during a weather disaster when supplies cant get in,equipment might be inoperable or staff with specialized skills cant get in, work with a nurse in her 60s or seventies. They can create things out of materials on hand more creatively than anyone, modify food supplies to meet special diets, the list goes on and on. I might add, they were often performing the roles skillfully of PT,OT, SLP and nutritionists.

Trauma Columnist · Aug 29, 2005

It's not a matter of forced retirement but "what can we do to retain these nurses and make them valued members of the team?" I am 47, completing an APN in May 06 and I fully intend to work until I'm 70 - because I will have to! However, I fully expect to continue all my certs if I work in the ER and by obtaining advanced education, I will have more opportunities for different types of work. Nursing is a hard job and sometimes we are our own worst enemies!

jsteine1 · Aug 29, 2005

If it were a federal regulation there could be no age discrimination suit. Professional pilots can not be in command of a jet liner after their 60th birthday and that includes the day of their birthday. It was thought, years ago when that regulation was made, that they'd be too old, have slow reaction times and a bunch of other stuff. Today---well, there are arguments on both sides.
What I'd really rather see is a rule, law or regulation of some kind that limits how many consecutive hours a nurse can work, and how many consecutive shifts as well. There have been nurses on all nurses who have bragged about doing 60 12-hour shifts in a row. That is just crazy and certainly cannot be safe for anybody concerned.
As far as age goes, those nurses you speak about may be just a warm body, but we have young nurses who don't seem to know what I & O means and therefore don't do it unless you make them. I don't think it's an age thing so much as they are allowed to get away with holding down the spot.

I dont think you can regulate this successfully. A 747 is a 747. A HHA is not a SNF is not an acute care hospital. is not an adult day care center. As far as the stamina issues of 60 12 hr shifts? Heres my thoughts: It took a long time but the rules regarding the absurd hours of interns and residents have changed to ensure patient safety.

My guess is that those nurse who bragged about 60 consecutive 12 hr shifts are:

1. in need of a drug test

2. working a full time job and also for multiple agencies and neither employer is aware of how many hours they are putting in.

3. might be less than truthful