FNP Oversaturation

Jules A, MSN · May 10, 2018

FullGlass said:
Personally, I have yet to see anyone on this forum produce a shred of actual evidence that NP pay is decreasing. If anyone does have such evidence (and I don't mean anecdotal) I'd love to see it.

What would you consider evidence? The salary reports that are published vary by such large degrees that I don't feel they are worth the time to even read and they aren't based on real time data. If I were to believe them I should be making 1/2 of what I have been since I graduated. Feel free to shrug this off as anecdotal but I recently received an offer for $20 an hour less than what I make and was told "that is all we are paying NPs now". A new hire, with years of experience, was brought in for $30,000 a year less than the last new hire 2 years ago.

Location will make a difference in the availability of positions if one is willing to live in the middle of nowhere but I would expect excellent wages for that hardship and $125,000, which is $25,000 less than what I started as a new grad years ago, isn't what I consider excellent.

Dranger · May 11, 2018

FullGlass said:
I did a very detailed analysis of this in a previous thread, so I'm not going to repeat it here. I see NO saturation of too many NPs, PAs, or primary care docs. It is very hard to project beyond 5 years, because conditions change. We don't have a supply problem, we have a distribution problem. What I find amazing is that with all the hand wringing going on here, when I post that our clinic is actively recruiting, not a single person tried to reach out to me about a job.
People need to go where the jobs are. End of story. Personally, I have no sympathy for people who whine and complain about low pay and/or lack of jobs, but are unwilling to move. If a person can't or won't move for a better opportunity, that is no one's fault but their own.
Pay does vary by location. Evaluating compensation requires looking at the cost of living. $125 K for a new grad NP might sound like a lot, but it doesn't go very far in San Francisco. A new grad accepting an NP job for $80K a year in a low cost of living area is probably better off when looking at standard of living.
This is a free country. People have a right to pursue whatever career they wish. If more people apply to NP school, that increases competition, which means only the best will get in. Harvard and Yale don't necessarily have the best academic programs, but with thousands of candidates for every spot, they can pick the best. We live in a free market economy, not a planned one. If there are too many NPs, only the best will get jobs. The market will thus correct any supply issues.
Personally, I have yet to see anyone on this forum produce a shred of actual evidence that NP pay is decreasing. If anyone does have such evidence (and I don't mean anecdotal) I'd love to see it.
There are very few professions where job openings are greater than the number of candidates. Dedicated professionals are not daunted by this. Competition is vital in a free market economy. Confident dedicated professionals plan for success and do what it takes to be at the top of their profession and they aren't afraid of competition. The cream of the crop will always command top dollar, too.

Do you honestly think the wage reporting estimates on google search are accurate? Of course there will always be jobs in the middle of nowhere USA, but 99% of people don't want those. These new grads flooding the market are more or less expecting to work in their current area or another metro area. They are in for a rude awakening.

Summary: Jobs and pay will decrease for NPs wanting to live in desirable to semi desirable areas of the US in the near future. Look at the estimated growth of the NP profession and please tell me how the salaries and quality of positions will improve. As I said in previous comment, almost 50% or more of each nursing floor you go to in a hospital has bedside RNs in NP school or strongly considering it. The faucet will cut off at some point. No one is satisfied with bed side nursing anymore and BSN schools have an obsession with degree inflation which will never rest.

RunNP · May 12, 2018

FullGlass said:
I did a very detailed analysis of this in a previous thread, so I'm not going to repeat it here. I see NO saturation of too many NPs, PAs, or primary care docs. It is very hard to project beyond 5 years, because conditions change. We don't have a supply problem, we have a distribution problem. What I find amazing is that with all the hand wringing going on here, when I post that our clinic is actively recruiting, not a single person tried to reach out to me about a job.
People need to go where the jobs are. End of story. Personally, I have no sympathy for people who whine and complain about low pay and/or lack of jobs, but are unwilling to move. If a person can't or won't move for a better opportunity, that is no one's fault but their own.
Pay does vary by location. Evaluating compensation requires looking at the cost of living. $125 K for a new grad NP might sound like a lot, but it doesn't go very far in San Francisco. A new grad accepting an NP job for $80K a year in a low cost of living area is probably better off when looking at standard of living.
This is a free country. People have a right to pursue whatever career they wish. If more people apply to NP school, that increases competition, which means only the best will get in. Harvard and Yale don't necessarily have the best academic programs, but with thousands of candidates for every spot, they can pick the best. We live in a free market economy, not a planned one. If there are too many NPs, only the best will get jobs. The market will thus correct any supply issues.
Personally, I have yet to see anyone on this forum produce a shred of actual evidence that NP pay is decreasing. If anyone does have such evidence (and I don't mean anecdotal) I'd love to see it.
There are very few professions where job openings are greater than the number of candidates. Dedicated professionals are not daunted by this. Competition is vital in a free market economy. Confident dedicated professionals plan for success and do what it takes to be at the top of their profession and they aren't afraid of competition. The cream of the crop will always command top dollar, too.

We see what is happening in our communities. My position which I have been in for nearly two years pays less for new hires in the same role today. Throughout the region the salaries have dropped 10-15K for entry level NP. I have had discussions with various members of my leadership about this and they flat out stated they respond to the trends in the area and the salaries have dropped accordingly.

terfernay · May 12, 2018

Dranger said:
Do you honestly think the wage reporting estimates on google search are accurate? Of course there will always be jobs in the middle of nowhere USA, but 99% of people don't want those. These new grads flooding the market are more or less expecting to work in their current area or another metro area. They are in for a rude awakening.
Summary: Jobs and pay will decrease for NPs wanting to live in desirable to semi desirable areas of the US in the near future. Look at the estimated growth of the NP profession and please tell me how the salaries and quality of positions will improve. As I said in previous comment, almost 50% or more of each nursing floor you go to in a hospital has bedside RNs in NP school or strongly considering it. The faucet will cut off at some point. No one is satisfied with bed side nursing anymore and BSN schools have an obsession with degree inflation which will never rest.

So are you saying that NPs who don't mind working in the middle of nowhere USA shouldn't have too much trouble finding a job?

Jules A, MSN · May 12, 2018

terfernay said:
So are you saying that NPs who don't mind working in the middle of nowhere USA shouldn't have too much trouble finding a job?

There are no sure answers to that but I would not bet thousands of dollars, my time and future career on this being an easy fix to an overall glut in NPs. While there is not the competition for jobs in undesirable areas there is also not usually a large number of positions due to fewer clinics, hospitals etc.

Oldmahubbard · May 12, 2018

Clearly, we have set the bar too low, largely due to the ease of attending online programs, regardless of their quality.

The profession is sadly going the way of teachers and lawyers.

Way, way too many graduates for the job market.

FullGlass, BSN, MSN, NP · May 12, 2018

Jules A said:
What would you consider evidence? The salary reports that are published vary by such large degrees that I don't feel they are worth the time to even read and they aren't based on real time data. If I were to believe them I should be making 1/2 of what I have been since I graduated. Feel free to shrug this off as anecdotal but I recently received an offer for $20 an hour less than what I make and was told "that is all we are paying NPs now". A new hire, with years of experience, was brought in for $30,000 a year less than the last new hire 2 years ago.
Location will make a difference in the availability of positions if one is willing to live in the middle of nowhere but I would expect excellent wages for that hardship and $125,000, which is $25,000 less than what I started as a new grad years ago, isn't what I consider excellent.

Interesting comment. You readily accept projections of too many NPs, yet reject the salary numbers from Google search. I have previously provided, in another thread, a very detailed analysis of various projections, which you did not respond to. Projections are ESTIMATES, not fact! Projections are based on assumptions and those assumptions may or may not be correct because conditions change. Change is the only constant.

And for everyone on this thread who is so worried about an NP surplus - then do not become an NP. People should only become an NP if they really want to do the job!

My anecdotal evidence is that I saw new grad NP pay increasing in primary care from the time I started thinking about becoming an NP in 2010 through 2018 in Baltimore and California. Psych NPs are commanding top dollar in California, as they are almost impossible to find.

I am also sick of people putting down rural areas. There are many upsides to living and working in a rural area. Beautiful scenery, wonderful outdoor recreation opportunities, nice friendly people, low cost of living, slower pace, no traffic, and a very interesting practice environment with more autonomy. It also saddens me that so few NPs are willing to consider this, as this is where the need is greatest. I thought we all became NPs to help people.

When USA Today ranks NPs as in the top 10 professions for earning power (and 2 places above PAs), it is ridiculous to hear complaints about pay.

FullGlass, BSN, MSN, NP · May 12, 2018

Jules A said:
What would you consider evidence? The salary reports that are published vary by such large degrees that I don't feel they are worth the time to even read and they aren't based on real time data. If I were to believe them I should be making 1/2 of what I have been since I graduated. Feel free to shrug this off as anecdotal but I recently received an offer for $20 an hour less than what I make and was told "that is all we are paying NPs now". A new hire, with years of experience, was brought in for $30,000 a year less than the last new hire 2 years ago.
Location will make a difference in the availability of positions if one is willing to live in the middle of nowhere but I would expect excellent wages for that hardship and $125,000, which is $25,000 less than what I started as a new grad years ago, isn't what I consider excellent.

Based on your previous posts, you are in the top 1% of psych NPs, so your experience is not representative. And based on your previous posts, you like your job and they like you. So why does it matter to you what new grads are making and the pay for some random job inquiries? There are no guarantees with regard to salary in this country unless one works in the public sector. However, I have yet to see you produce any actual evidence of your assertions regarding NP pay.

I am a new grad primary care NP and I am very happy with my job and my pay. But hey, if there is a profession where a person can make $150 K to $200 K with just a Master's degree, and a new grad with no experience at that, then please do share. I can tell you that has never been the case for a new grad primary care NP in California. A new grad psych NP in California can command $150K, depending on location, and experienced psych NPs can make up to $200K a year or more here. I would also imagine a psych NP in a full practice authority state who has their own practice or works as an independent contractor could get even more.

It is up to individuals to research the salary and job prospects for a profession before investing time and money in school. That is true of any profession. Individuals who are at the top of their profession will always make good money and those at the bottom of their profession will not - that is true of healthcare, law, business, accounting, etc. A partner in a top law firm will make $1,000,000+, but the average lawyer makes far, far less. So should no one pursue a career in law? People who can get into top law schools are still, and always will be, recruited heavily by the AmLaw 100 firms for big bucks. That is true of any profession.

Anyone who is focused on making a lot of money should NOT choose NP. Here is how to make a boatload of money: successful business entrepreneur or senior business executive, partner in a top law firm or successful litigator, investment banker, or sales. I wouldn't even put MDs in that list, given the risk and hassles of practicing medicine.

djmatte, ADN, MSN, RN, NP · May 12, 2018

FullGlass said:
Interesting comment. You readily accept projections of too many NPs, yet reject the salary numbers from Google search. I have previously provided, in another thread, a very detailed analysis of various projections, which you did not respond to. Projections are ESTIMATES, not fact! Projections are based on assumptions and those assumptions may or may not be correct because conditions change. Change is the only constant.
And for everyone on this thread who is so worried about an NP surplus - then do not become an NP. People should only become an NP if they really want to do the job!
My anecdotal evidence is that I saw new grad NP pay increasing in primary care from the time I started thinking about becoming an NP in 2010 through 2018 in Baltimore and California. Psych NPs are commanding top dollar in California, as they are almost impossible to find.
I am also sick of people putting down rural areas. There are many upsides to living and working in a rural area. Beautiful scenery, wonderful outdoor recreation opportunities, nice friendly people, low cost of living, slower pace, no traffic, and a very interesting practice environment with more autonomy. It also saddens me that so few NPs are willing to consider this, as this is where the need is greatest. I thought we all became NPs to help people.
When USA Today ranks NPs as in the top 10 professions for earning power (and 2 places above PAs), it is ridiculous to hear complaints about pay.

Did you seriously just compare the predictions of a federal agency that are found in clearly cited evidence to wage estimates from glassdoor et al which are literally an aggregate of opinion and non-validated information as if the two are equally invalid sources?

mmutk, BSN, RN, EMT-I · May 12, 2018

One good thing about being an AGACNP is your still an RN. I practice at a hospital where an NP works as an RN in the ICU because it pays so much right now.

guest769224 · May 13, 2018

FullGlass said:
So why does it matter to you what new grads are making and the pay for some random job inquiries?

Maybe because she and many others are concerned with the health of the profession they practice in and want to be involved? But you don't understand that because you are a brand new NP and haven't seen the changes that have rapidly evolved in the NP profession in the last decade.

Why should it matter to you that people take active interest with that issue?

Jules A, MSN · May 13, 2018

ICUman said:
Maybe because she and many others are concerned with the health of the profession they practice in and want to be involved? But you don't understand that because you are a brand new NP and haven't seen the changes that have rapidly evolved in the NP profession in the last decade.
Why should it matter to you that people take active interest with that issue?

Yup my interest lines in my gross income and ability to support my family which are being destroyed as new people come in willing to work for less than established rates. I'm good at what I do but not so good that my employers will continue paying me $50,000-$80,000 more a year than the crop of new graduates who are flooding my local market willing to work for low wages.