Fired for refusing??

Nurses COVID

Published

  1. Did you refuse the Flu shot this year?

53 members have participated

Thoughts on employer mandatory Flu vaccine...

Specializes in Anesthesia.
Analysis finds limited evidence for HCW flu vaccination | CIDRAP

Clearly there is a huge divide in the medical community. And questioning whether or not this vaccine should be mandated is more than conspiracy talk.

Didn't read the study again did you? Effect of Influenza Vaccination of Health Care Personnel on Morbidity and Mortality among Patients: Systematic Review and Grading of Evidence

"Conclusions. The quality of evidence is higher for mortality than for other outcomes. HCP influenza vaccination can enhance patient safety."


Up Vote Up Vote ×
Specializes in Adult Internal Medicine.
Analysis finds limited evidence for HCW flu vaccination | CIDRAP Clearly there is a huge divide in the medical community. And questioning whether or not this vaccine should be mandated is more than conspiracy talk.

This is from the article you linked:

" The benefits of HCW vaccination to employees and the patients outweigh possible harms, and the practice can improve patient safety, they concluded."

Which arm do you want the shot in?

Up Vote Up Vote ×
This is from the article you linked:

" The benefits of HCW vaccination to employees and the patients outweigh possible harms, and the practice can improve patient safety, they concluded."

Which arm do you want the shot in?

"They noted that the 29% drop in deaths is likely to raise questions, because flu has been estimated to play a role in less than 10% of all winter deaths in seniors. They added, however, that there are no estimates on the proportion of winter deaths from flu in frail elderly people."

"It is disconcerting when meta-analyses come to different conclusions," Griffin wrote, adding that the two reports agreed about the lack of evidence for protection for more specific outcomes, including lab-confirmed flu and acute respiratory hospitalizations."

"In an editorial published alongside the study, Marie Griffin, MD, MPH, professor of preventive medicine at School of Medicine, wrote that the researchers based the overall "moderate" grade on the consistent reduction in all-cause deaths in the intervention groups. She noted, however, that studies included in the analysis, though important, had some weaknesses, ranging from being underpowered to not evaluating lab-confirmed flu.Griffin pointed out that, after the researchers submitted their study, a Cochrane group updated its meta-analysis on the topic, using three of the same studies and focusing on more specific outcomes, such as lab-confirmed flu. The Cochrane analysis found no evidence to support compulsory vaccination of HCW, she wrote."

"For outcomes that matter the most—lab-confirmed flu and flu hospitalizations—the two meta-analyses (the CDC's and Cochrane's) both find low or very low levels of evidence, he said. "We simply don't have good evidence that vaccination of healthcare personnel prevents influenza transmission to patients,"

"He also cautioned that the meta-analyses focus on nursing homes, which are very different from hospitals, where patient turnover is higher and there are often people in the facility who aren't HCWs. Even with 100% vaccination rates in employees, the roughly 60% protection offered by the vaccine creates a gap in which workers can still get sick and spread the virus to patients, he said."

"We really don't have a good grip on the epidemiology of influenza in the healthcare setting,"

Up Vote Up Vote ×
Specializes in Adult Internal Medicine.
"They noted that the 29% drop in deaths is likely to raise questions because flu has been estimated to play a role in less than 10% of all winter deaths in seniors. They added, however, that there are no estimates on the proportion of winter deaths from flu in frail elderly people." "It is disconcerting when meta-analyses come to different conclusions," Griffin wrote, adding that the two reports agreed about the lack of evidence for protection for more specific outcomes, including lab-confirmed flu and acute respiratory hospitalizations." "In an editorial published alongside the study, Marie Griffin, MD, MPH, professor of preventive medicine at Vanderbilt University School of Medicine, wrote that the researchers based the overall "moderate" grade on the consistent reduction in all-cause deaths in the intervention groups. She noted, however, that studies included in the analysis, though important, had some weaknesses, ranging from being underpowered to not evaluating lab-confirmed flu.Griffin pointed out that, after the researchers submitted their study, a Cochrane group updated its meta-analysis on the topic, using three of the same studies and focusing on more specific outcomes, such as lab-confirmed flu. The Cochrane analysis found no evidence to support compulsory vaccination of HCW, she wrote." "For outcomes that matter the most—lab-confirmed flu and flu hospitalizations—the two meta-analyses (the CDC's and Cochrane's) both find low or very low levels of evidence, he said. "We simply don't have good evidence that vaccination of healthcare personnel prevents influenza transmission to patients," "He also cautioned that the meta-analyses focus on nursing homes, which are very different from hospitals, where patient turnover is higher and there are often people in the facility who aren't HCWs. Even with 100% vaccination rates in employees, the roughly 60% protection offered by the vaccine creates a gap in which workers can still get sick and spread the virus to patients, he said." "We really don't have a good grip on the epidemiology of influenza in the healthcare setting," [/quote']

But wait....what did they conclude????

Up Vote Up Vote ×
Specializes in Anesthesia.
"They noted that the 29% drop in deaths is likely to raise questions, because flu has been estimated to play a role in less than 10% of all winter deaths in seniors. They added, however, that there are no estimates on the proportion of winter deaths from flu in frail elderly people."

"It is disconcerting when meta-analyses come to different conclusions," Griffin wrote, adding that the two reports agreed about the lack of evidence for protection for more specific outcomes, including lab-confirmed flu and acute respiratory hospitalizations."

"In an editorial published alongside the study, Marie Griffin, MD, MPH, professor of preventive medicine at Vanderbilt University School of Medicine, wrote that the researchers based the overall "moderate" grade on the consistent reduction in all-cause deaths in the intervention groups. She noted, however, that studies included in the analysis, though important, had some weaknesses, ranging from being underpowered to not evaluating lab-confirmed flu.Griffin pointed out that, after the researchers submitted their study, a Cochrane group updated its meta-analysis on the topic, using three of the same studies and focusing on more specific outcomes, such as lab-confirmed flu. The Cochrane analysis found no evidence to support compulsory vaccination of HCW, she wrote."

"For outcomes that matter the most—lab-confirmed flu and flu hospitalizations—the two meta-analyses (the CDC's and Cochrane's) both find low or very low levels of evidence, he said. "We simply don't have good evidence that vaccination of healthcare personnel prevents influenza transmission to patients,"

"He also cautioned that the meta-analyses focus on nursing homes, which are very different from hospitals, where patient turnover is higher and there are often people in the facility who aren't HCWs. Even with 100% vaccination rates in employees, the roughly 60% protection offered by the vaccine creates a gap in which workers can still get sick and spread the virus to patients, he said."

"We really don't have a good grip on the epidemiology of influenza in the healthcare setting,"

And the conclusions of the article again was what? And the drop in mortality rates was not important to you? The Cochrane study which I have addressed on another thread wants large RCTs to come to specific conclusions. In other words they want to compare a bunch of non-vaccinated people and there death/flu rates against hospitals where the majority is vaccinated. I would like to see that get IRB approval..

To recap again:

1. Flu vaccine is effective.

2. Flu vaccine does reduce mortality rates

3. Masks and UV lights are not as effective as the flu vaccines

4. Basically, all medical, nursing, state health departments, and national health organizations recommend getting the flu vaccine based on expert recommendations based on scientific literature reviews, but you think that your opinion is more accurate than their expert opinions.

Up Vote Up Vote ×
And your peer-reviewed scientific research that belongs with the meaningless rant is where?

How about we discuss hierarchy of evidence or how to perform a scientific literature search?

Care to talk about differences in educational levels and experience levels of most health care professionals that are over 35 years versus those under 35?

I think these are all more pertinent than your unfounded anti-vaccine conspiracy theories.

How to Win an Argument About Vaccines | Wired Magazine | Wired.com

10 Vaccine Myths-Busted - Parenting.com

Vaccines: Vac-Gen/Some Misconceptions

Well, which would you like me to address first? The list of FDA blunders, CDC failures, the members of each that have served on boards of big pharm businesses, etc? Doesn't take much to find hundreds of fed failures that previously were commended and pushed by individuals such as yourself, again, accepting what is told to them because they are gov and here to help us.

As for age, where did I say anything pertaining to education? I was implying that the older generations are, by in large, complacent, rarely questioning anything presented to them by a higher power, be that hospital admin or gov. As I stated, typically someone's voting record is a reflection of the such.

I'm currently on my phone, but I have a plethora of links at my house to back up my statements concerning your beloved and omnipotent fed organizations.

Up Vote Up Vote ×
Specializes in Anesthesia.
Well, which would you like me to address first? The list of FDA blunders, CDC failures, the members of each that have served on boards of big pharm businesses, etc? Doesn't take much to find hundreds of fed failures that previously were commended and pushed by individuals such as yourself, again, accepting what is told to them because they are gov and here to help us.

As for age, where did I say anything pertaining to education? I was implying that the older generations are, by in large, complacent, rarely questioning anything presented to them by a higher power, be that hospital admin or gov. As I stated, typically someone's voting record is a reflection of the such.

I'm currently on my phone, but I have a plethora of links at my house to back up my statements concerning your beloved and omnipotent fed organizations.

And I will be happy to refute all of them again and again and again like I always do on here. You could just skip that and go to thread about Paul Offit interview where he refutes all these myths at one time and save us all the trouble. I for one am still waiting for any pertinent peer-reviewed scientific article that suggest not being vaccinated is recommended or even a good idea for most people.

You are assuming that the 35+ crowd don't question authority which is absolute BS. I suggest that the over 35 crowd have more education and life experience to make informed decisions.

By the way what is educational and work background?

Up Vote Up Vote ×
Specializes in Emergency.
No it's a choice. A choice with consequences.[/quote']

I think that is kinda the point.

Up Vote Up Vote ×
And I will be happy to refute all of them again and again and again like I always do on here. You could just skip that and go to thread about Paul Offit interview where he refutes all these myths at one time and save us all the trouble. I for one am still waiting for any pertinent peer-reviewed scientific article that suggest not being vaccinated is recommended or even a good idea for most people.

You are assuming that the 35+ crowd don't question authority which is absolute BS. I suggest that the over 35 crowd have more education and life experience to make informed decisions.

By the way what is educational and work background?

Education and life experience has no bearing on someone's ability to question authority. It's even worse if they have said life experience, and chose not to utilize it.

I have a finance background, went to Suffolk. This is a second career choice. Lost interest in finance.

Currently enrolled in an accelerated BSN program. I planned on completing this, and proceeding onto the path of CRNA, however I'm having second thoughts and heavily weighing the option of med school. Something I probably could have pursued right out of the box, however I would like to see this thru regardless as I'm not 100% sold on one direction or the other. Time and finances weighs heavily on the decision, as I'm 28, certainly not getting younger, and the idea of 200K in loans (on top of what I currently have) is a bit daunting to say the least. A few things currently in the works could change that, but as of right now I'm assuming worst case, as we all know...have a plan A, B, C, and D.

As for the FDA, we could always start with Avandia. The list of their gross negligence is virtually endless, but this one is fresh.

As for the CDC, well you're talking about an agency with a blank check, that classifies gun ownership as a public health concern...shining examples of human logic.

For these guys, let's start with the OIG investigations. Matter of public record, certainly not conspiracy theory.

Up Vote Up Vote ×
Specializes in Anesthesia.
Education and life experience has no bearing on someone's ability to question authority. It's even worse if they have said life experience, and chose not to utilize it.

I have a finance background, went to Suffolk. This is a second career choice. Lost interest in finance.

Currently enrolled in an accelerated BSN program. I planned on completing this, and proceeding onto the path of CRNA, however I'm having second thoughts and heavily weighing the option of med school. Something I probably could have pursued right out of the box, however I would like to see this thru regardless as I'm not 100% sold on one direction or the other. Time and finances weighs heavily on the decision, as I'm 28, certainly not getting younger, and the idea of 200K in loans (on top of what I currently have) is a bit daunting to say the least. A few things currently in the works could change that, but as of right now I'm assuming worst case, as we all know...have a plan A, B, C, and D.

As for the FDA, we could always start with Avandia. The list of their gross negligence is virtually endless, but this one is fresh.

As for the CDC, well you're talking about an agency with a blank check, that classifies gun ownership as a public health concern...shining examples of human logic.

For these guys, let's start with the OIG investigations. Matter of public record, certainly not conspiracy theory.

Actually, historically the academics are the first ones to be imprisoned and/or killed during authoritarian governments d/t their questioning of government policies and practices. Educated persons are usually the first ones to question government decisions and demand change in government this has been a fact in the U.S. since the founding fathers and the Declaration of Independence.

Everyone loves a conspiracy theory, but again where is any peer-reviewed scientific literature to back up any of this conspiracy theory.

We can all sit around pointing our fingers at this government agency or that government agency saying they did X wrong, but where is the proof that flu vaccines or any current vaccine is not effective and/or dangerous.

And at 28 with a degree in finance you know more than all epidemiologists at the CDC, WHO, and medical societies. That is impressive, but of course this is without any proof at all versus thousands of peer-reviewed scientific articles that support being vaccinated…

I am still waiting on that plethora of evidence too.

Up Vote Up Vote ×
I thought she was off the vaccine thing after she found out that her son didn't actually have autism.

Turns out that was just a rumor - Jenny McCarthy shoots down 'ridiculous' rumors her son was misdiagnosed with autism - NY Daily News

Up Vote Up Vote ×
+ Add a Comment