Fear-mongering in nursing school

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londonflo

2,907 Posts

Specializes in oncology.
51 minutes ago, Tegridy said:

Nursing absolutely does not have a patent on holistic care. Also, nursing theory and nursing diagnoses are mostly hogwash.

Integrative medicine does try to "own" the wholistic or holistic practice of medicine. I see that now nursing theory is only "mostly hogwash" in your view. Perhaps there is hope for us yet. LOL! All being well, hopefully you didn't let the door of the nurses' lounge hit you on the way out. Somehow you failed to glean that nursing is more than 'hands on'.

Wishing you the best of happiness in your new health care field! I do appreciate the amount of time, energy and cost it has taken to get you where you are today. Every one deserves to feel pride and accomplishment in an education well earned.

Now, instead of hijacking this thread for your personal disparagement of nursing, I would ask you to name a couple things that you did like about nursing. Let's celebrate that. It sounds like you were 'very hands on'.

Tegridy

583 Posts

Specializes in Former NP now Internal medicine PGY-3.
42 minutes ago, londonflo said:

Integrative medicine does try to "own" the wholistic or holistic practice of medicine. I see that now nursing theory is only "mostly hogwash" in your view. Perhaps there is hope for us yet. LOL! All being well, hopefully you didn't let the door of the nurses' lounge hit you on the way out. Somehow you failed to glean that nursing is more than 'hands on'.

Wishing you the best of happiness in your new health care field! I do appreciate the amount of time, energy and cost it has taken to get you where you are today. Every one deserves to feel pride and accomplishment in an education well earned.

Now, instead of hijacking this thread for your personal disparagement of nursing, I would ask you to name a couple things that you did like about nursing. Let's celebrate that. It sounds like you were 'very hands on'.

Some of the good would be hands on work, talking to patients and family, learning medical knowledge, enjoying the work flow of the shift, and seeing patients get better. Nursing is hands on work. Blue collar labor. Medicine also is blue collar labor. Nothing wrong with good ole hard hands on work. I suppose you can consider doctors and nurses in admin and research white(ish) collar, but as a whole for regular RN school I felt as it was too much theory and not enough hard science and dexterity based skills training.

integrative medicine is a lot of pandering of unverified treatments..... Depending on practitioner. I think holistic is just one of those terms coined to make something sound legit, medicine uses it, nursing uses it, eh chiros (LOL) use it. Sort of lost its meaning a long time ago. It’s also sort of hard to define, like the term critical thinking. I guess “whole person” would work, essentially what we take the social history for.

MRH23

10 Posts

3 hours ago, londonflo said:

If the fourth semester was the only time you had withdrawn, you should be in good shape (all though I must add - depending on your school's policy). First thing is look up the policy and if there is a policy on any kind of withdrawal due to illness. I can't

I think discrimination does exist one of the professors on the committee is from mass general and she is brutal and she did look at my meds. She may want me to redo Two semesters at a cost. My med surg GPA is around an 82 and I have a good clinical course grade as well so if they choose to be partial and know they can get away with it I have to give them what they want I’d think and just say my piece. I did call a legal counsel no reply yet so I’m not sure if or how I would fight a decision but it’s very important right now

in my life that this work with me younger students have gotten more for less as as I’m 37 female and unmarried I really feel this specific professor doesn’t listen IDK any key phrases to use LOL I’d appreciate any feedback of course thanks

londonflo

2,907 Posts

Specializes in oncology.
1 hour ago, Tegridy said:

Some of the good would be hands on work, talking to patients and family, learning medical knowledge, enjoying the work flow of the shift, and seeing patients get better. Nursing is hands on work

Those are the things I liked. (I retired just a little early because of health problems.) Having patients achieve large and small accomplishments and being a part of that, even if it was small. We do share a common language. I am thrilled to see you carry on those attributes into your present profession. Best wishes as you navigate through the health problems and its systems today.

Specializes in School Nursing.
On 5/12/2020 at 9:30 AM, OUxPhys said:

Yep. No joke. The average was 30 pages. It was ridiculous. I had heard a rumor toward the end of my time in school that my school was supposedly switching to care mapping.

30 page care plans? The only paper from nursing school that was over 2-3 pages for me was the community assessment, which was about 60 pages but done as a group project.

I've never heard any other nurse who had to write 30 page care plans.

londonflo

2,907 Posts

Specializes in oncology.
On 5/14/2020 at 6:00 PM, TheDudeWithTheBigDog said:

I thank ACEN and CCNE for that. We created a monster. Jobs will overlook people who didn't graduate with those accreditations, and schools won't take transfers, meanwhile the school, who only uses it as a marketing tool since they'd still have a full program without the national accreditation, is more focused on keeping the logo on their website than they are teaching students to be nurses. Yeah, they have better pass rates and long-term outcomes, but they've also led to schools using exit exams to determine if the student is even allowed to attempt to get licensed.

Shut those agencies down, bring it back to programs only being regulated by the state so that the education goes back to being a nurse instead of making sure enough people pass the NCLEX on their first attempt, which is thanks to programs like UWorld and Kaplan contracting with the schools to give massive cram-sessions

ACEN and CCNE are there to protect you the learner to get a quality program in exchange for your time, effort and $.

If entry to licensure nursing program is not accredited by ACEN/CCNE you cannot:

-get Federal funding for graduate school

-get into reputable graduate schools

-have access to Federal funding and other forms of financial aid.

-any loans available will be private and may be from the school owners themselves at ridiculous interest

ACEN and CCNE criteria do NOT include NCLEX pass rates. This honor belongs to the state boards of nursing. If a school has 3 years of pass rates below the national average, the state will step in and put the program on probation, in the 2 states I have practiced in. I don't know if this true of all other 48 states. Probation will outline what needs to be improved and if a program is not successful, the state can eliminate that school's graduates from sitting for the NCLEX in any state. Closure will result.

Pass rates are big time important and yes, that is what initiated the preponderance of exit exams, review programs and textbook test banks. The school wants to survive and graduate learners that can pass the NCLEX on the first try. Second try doesn't count in a school's pass rate. It actually is important information for you, too.

Hey DudeWithTheBigDog,

I hope you give some thought to being involved in the nursing education process in the future. You will learn about all the quality controls in any educational program which is vital to helping perspective students gain a sound education. And there are a lot of BIG DOGS in accreditation. You can participate in site visits regardless of your educational level.

guest1141431

8 Posts

Yes! I noticed that a lot of nursing students talk about failing out etc. even my professors have! And it scares me more than the actual work itself. and I’ve been doing pretty well in my classes to be honest. I got through the first 6 classes with A and B+ (3.6 GPA) I think what makes me the most stressed out is what people say, and the coursework is something that you’re able to handle with time and efforts. It’s definitely difficult but it’s not as tough as people say it is you just have to put in the work. My first time taking physio was difficult but if you work extra hard to build your foundation it’s going to be okay in subsequent classes.

Specializes in School Nursing.
13 hours ago, Futurenurse836 said:

Yes! I noticed that a lot of nursing students talk about failing out etc. even my professors have! And it scares me more than the actual work itself. and I’ve been doing pretty well in my classes to be honest. I got through the first 6 classes with A and B+ (3.6 GPA) I think what makes me the most stressed out is what people say, and the coursework is something that you’re able to handle with time and efforts. It’s definitely difficult but it’s not as tough as people say it is you just have to put in the work. My first time taking physio was difficult but if you work extra hard to build your foundation it’s going to be okay in subsequent classes.

The constant threat of 'failing out' was probably the biggest stress I experienced during nursing school. While I maintained a GPA over 3.0, just knowing a mistake could make it all go away and all the hard work would have been for nothing. In our program, you had I "do over" if you failed a class, the second fail kicked you out of the program. In our first semester, we had about 8 our of 100 cohort quit after the first exam, and we had about 20 students fail one of the first semester courses. Every semester had a few fails. I couldn't imagine the stress THEY all felt the rest of the way. The final semester was the busiest and hardest. It turned out about 3 of the students that had failed a class earlier in the program failed a class in the final semester. Luckily for them, they were allowed to repeat the class the following semester and graduate. I can't imagine getting to the end and being kicked out. I'm not sure if the nursing school makes exceptions always in the final semester, or if they do it on a case by case? Anyway-- I agree the threat of failing is the worst part.

Yodi2007

18 Posts

On 5/6/2020 at 1:27 PM, Guest1033582 said:

Coming on here just to vent and see if anyone has noticed a similar culture:

I just finished my first semester of BSN nursing school (fundamentals w/ clinical, health assessment, & pharm I) at a private 4-year university. I absolutely love what I am learning and have never been more sure that nursing is my calling.

However, I notice there is a huge culture of fear-mongering among nursing students and professors. Before I actually started the program, students were telling me to be prepared for how hard the classes would be. Even advisors and professors would try to emphasize that nursing school is the hardest thing you would ever do, how it would push you to your limit, how you would have no social life and study all the time, etc. As a pre-nursing student, I was terrified to enter nursing school and what it would hold.

But after a semester...I find that their comments are almost unfounded. The sheer volume of work is a lot but the actual content of what we are learning is--dare I say--easier than my prerequisites. I feel as if nursing students and professors go around saying how hard it is, wearing it as a badge of honor. My friend group feels the same way I do, but among my classmates, all you hear are nursing students complaining about how hard their life is, how nursing school is impossible, how they're being pushed to their limit. I wouldn't say nursing school is "easy" because there is so much time just completing busywork (I.e.- care plans, concept maps) that goes into it...but it certainly isn't rocket science, like there's a reason so many people make it through nursing school vs. how many people make it through medical school. Pharm is the most conceptually heavy and even that just builds off A&P course (my university has very challenging prerequisites so maybe we were just well prepared).

So all of that to say--have any of you experienced a culture of fear-mongering in your nursing school and found it to be completely asinine? I feel as if it's a negative environment that is toxic to morale, and I just don't understand why PROFESSORS continue to propagate it. How do you separate yourself from the negativity? It is hard for someone who is already anxious to hear all this hype that I will be so pushed and so challenged, and having to deal with the constant influx of "LOL yeah good luck" is emotionally draining.

Quite frankly you're only barley getting your feet in the kiddy pool before you even ready to take on the ocean! I found my pre-req easy 3.7 including extra biology like Marine Biology I took for fun because I love science, except math my kryptonite! I went from LPN to RN in an accelerated program that required a 75 of higher. I failed mother baby because I don't like peds at all! In LPN school you weren't even a CNA deemed fit to wash booties for non-ambulatory patients and yes in my second quarter for the first 3 weeks thats all we could do! My instructor's were vigorous and kicked you out of class if they thought you were knew more than anybody else and their reasoning is you're not listening and learning. This is an old military adage, The day you stop learning is they day you're going to get yourself killed or kill somebody! I had a LPN in my bridge class who though she knew better anybody and was the first one booted out of school and expelled when the teacher dismissed her by threatening harm to staff. She also called my instructor racists that doesn't like blacks (over 50% of my class including me were black). Difficulty comes in different terms such as balancing essential life (paying bills, eating, and taking care of your family if you have one). I've had 4.0 students fail out of Nursing school. I've seen our class honors who couldn't do anything right on the floor and couldn't lead a team of nurses during leadership and held it for one day! She currently is in a Dr's office and afraid to work in an Acute setting or Hospital!

My class instructors also put us in the best position to learn hands on, we ran mock codes with those 100k mannequins that instructors could control on a computer. We worked with student police officers, student paramedics/emt's, Student MD's (from our local MED schools), and Residents from the local Hospital and it was the best thing we could have experienced!

Not sure what school you are going to but again you're only in the pre-phase! Pharm is easy I made an A on that with my eyes closed! They do fear mongering because alot of people come in with a mind set of I made an 3.7-4.0 in my pre-reqs, but you have to critically think and there will be a day you have to be a charge nurse or manager and no one will be there to help you out! We just fired a nurse who was smart but couldn't follow simple directions on the floor! She was going to kill someone sooner or later, because training on our floor was beneath her. My Nurse Manager got her placed on a non rehire list from the hospital and sister hospitals. Another facility in a city about 50 miles away called and asked for a reference and my Nurse Manager responded that she would not rehire her but can't say why.

What I'm saying is keep doing what you do and don't cause poor morale amongst students in the program as that can get you dismissed.

I also should add is that Nursing is a stressful job no matter what floor you work!

On 5/7/2020 at 5:11 PM, Guest1033582 said:

You see, I'm not the only one who feels this way though. My friend group who has been with me since the very beginning (some of whom are already entering senior year) are breezing by with 4.0s as well while hearing 75% of our classmates complain about how "hard" everything is. I think it's an attitude problem.

The people who are struggling and feel the need to complain are my biggest issue. It fosters such a negative culture and honestly...if you're struggling either 1) reevaluate your career choice or 2) work harder and don't complain because that takes up time. My own roommate, actually, is entering senior year and has been struggling, getting B's in her theory classes. Does she have to work harder? Yes. Does she complain about it? Not once.

Bottom line--if you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the damn porch. And don't scare the poor prenursing students by making it sound as if nursing school is the hardest thing EVER. That not only drives away some potentially brilliant minds, but it is also a "Debbie Downer" to the people around you who are actually working hard without being whiney. Yes, nursing school is time-consuming. But it's nursing--not exactly med school, engineering school, etc.

You sound pleasant.

On 5/18/2020 at 12:46 PM, londonflo said:

ACEN and CCNE are there to protect you the learner to get a quality program in exchange for your time, effort and $.

If entry to licensure nursing program is not accredited by ACEN/CCNE you cannot:

-get Federal funding for graduate school

-get into reputable graduate schools

-have access to Federal funding and other forms of financial aid.

-any loans available will be private and may be from the school owners themselves at ridiculous interest

First off, the quality, there's absolutely no evidence that you get a better quality of education from a school accredited by either of those.

Now, not being able to get funding for graduate school or financial aide and being forced to only be able to take private loans, is pure BS. And whoever told you that lied to you. The ONLY requirement for any of those is regional or national accreditation. That it was an accredited school that can legally operate. Meaning that graduate degree is from a school that can legally offer graduate degrees. And that you got your bachelor's degree from a school that could legally give bachelor's degrees.

ACEN and CCNE are NOT what's being referenced when the laws talk about an accredited school. They're talking about the regional and national accreditations that are required for ANY school to legally operate. If a school does not have one of these accreditations, they cannot offer a degree. So if you have a degree from a school that doesn't have one of these accreditations, you technically don't have that degree. That's why non-accredited schools typically offer diplomas or certificates, and tend to not teach things like nursing, but instead focus on things like becoming a mechanic.

To give you an idea, my college is accredited by the SACSCOC. That's a regional accreditation that allows them to operate and offer an associate's degree. Then they're accredited by my state's BON. That's what allows them to give a degree in nursing. If my education wasn't at a high enough level to be able to safely operate, my state wouldn't have accredited the school. If my state was accrediting it anyway with too low of standards, the NCSBN would have stepped in. With the NLC in existence, they're all already at a standard level of education. Know what that ACEN logo on my school's website means? I paid more money for the same exact quality of education just so that I could pay extra money to whatever school I transfer to because they have the CCNE logo on their website. Why? So that a company can make millions of dollars every year in investments. Paying their executives between 100 and 600K / year (since they're a nonprofit, all of their financial information is public). It's not about better education, it's about business.

londonflo

2,907 Posts

Specializes in oncology.
1 hour ago, TheDudeWithTheBigDog said:

First off, the quality, there's absolutely no evidence that you get a better quality of education from a school accredited by either of those.

ACEN and CCNE are programmatic accreditation. To see where the lack of a programmatic accreditation resulted in devastating results for students, one need only to look at the recent debacle of ITT and Breckinridge School of Nursing. ACEN and CCNE both investigate the financial soundness of a nursing program, ensuring that funds exist and will continue to exist and are supplied for all areas of school function. The lack of any financial accountability to the ITT students left them without a degree and without transferable credits..

SACSCOC is regional accreditation and yes, they are the ones who have granted your institution the ability to award degrees. Non-degree programs offered at technical schools may be 'certificate' programs.' Practical nursing is an example of a certificate program at the community college I teach at. I can only speak of what I am familiar with, not a global generalization.

Once again, for clarification, your state BON gives approval for your program's graduates to sit for the NCLEX. That approval can be taken away if graduates do not consistently achieve better than national passing rates on the NCLEX. Only 34 states are NLC states. So that is not a "standard of education". There are some states that probably will never participate in NLC as they disagree with program approval for Excelsior.

Yes, the NCSBN are the group of all state BON.

1 hour ago, TheDudeWithTheBigDog said:

Know what that ACEN logo on my school's website means? I paid more money for the same exact quality of education

Maybe. Quality usually costs more. You will be asked to complete a 6 - 12 month post graduate questionnaire on your educational program and its helping prepare you to be an RN. Please complete that. Your constructive comments will be used in the program evaluation which is a major part of the ACEN or CCNE self -study for accreditation.

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