Excelsior Grads - Do You Think Online Nursing Is In Jeopardy? What State Are You In?

rnlately · Aug 18, 2008

I called the BON and asked them what the deal was with EC? Were the grads running into trouble post NCLEX, lot of them being sued, what? You know what their answer was?
Prepare to steam:
"Well, we had to have clinicals when I was in nursing school..."
Hello, I'm probably doing more now as an LPN in my state than RNs were allowed to do back when you were in nursing school.
"Because we've always done it this way" is NEVER a good enough reason for anything if that's the only reason....

And a lot of them were probably in nursing school a million years ago. Times change, situations change, and people change. A long, long time ago LPNs received their licenses by working in the local hospital. Since they want to talk about "way back when", why not allow a paramedic or LPN become an RN just by working in the field for "x" amt of years just as was allowed years ago to obtain LPN licensure

serenity67 · Aug 18, 2008

And a lot of them were probably in nursing school a million years ago. Times change, situations change, and people change. A long, long time ago LPNs received their licenses by working in the local hospital. Since they want to talk about "way back when", why not allow a paramedic or LPN become an RN just by working in the field for "x" amt of years just as was allowed years ago to obtain LPN licensure

]I agree with you 100%!! Times change... it's called "progression". Meanwhile, while we're fighting for our education, take a look at THIS... it REALLY has me fired up!!

]

This is what has currently happened in the House

They are worried about excelsior students working in the states, but

what about those who are here on visas

Urge Congress to Support HR 5924: Legislation to Address Nursing

Shortage

Bill will provide visas for properly qualified RNs

While the shortage of nursing and healthcare workers persists, a visa

shortage has compounded the impact of the workforce shortage by

limiting the ability of American hospitals to hire foreign nursing

professionals.

The Emergency Nursing Supply Relief Act, (H.R. 5924), will help

alleviate the nursing shortage by providing visas for properly

qualified registered nurses to work in the U.S.

House panel passes bill to ease nurse shortage

A subcommittee of the House Judiciary Committee on Aug. 1 voted 7-2

to approve H.R. 5924, American Hospital Association-backed

legislation that would allow more foreign-educated nurses to work in

the U.S. and help U.S. nursing schools expand the domestic supply of

nurses. The bill would reserve 20,000 employment-based visas in each

of the next three years for foreign-educated registered nurses and

physical therapists. It also would provide funds to expand U.S.

nursing schools and create a pilot program aimed at keeping U.S.

nurses in the workforce.

The U.S. has a waiting list for employment-based visas for nurses,

and its nurse education programs turned away more than 150,000

qualified applicants last year due to lack of faculty and clinical

space. The bill was approved by the Judiciary Immigration,

Citizenship, Refugees, Border Security, and International Law

Subcommittee.

]Here is a link where you can view the bill and even leave comments, BUT PLEASE REMEMBER to be respectful... OUTRAGED YES... but remember we are trying to make a point of our professionalism and we want our comments to reflect that. That being said...

]GO GET 'EM GUYS AND GALS! :up:

]

http://www.washingtonwatch.com/bills/show/110_HR_5924.html#usercomments

Melinurse · Aug 19, 2008

Does any one know about any other states in which Excelsior is cool? Who can you contact in order to find this out?

EC is very much accepted in Wisconsin. Although some employers are a bit " concerned " about lack of clinical experience. I had no trouble with the BON though and my employer was ok with the EC thing too. Although I did have to be creative in my resume. They really liked the independent thinker who had to be creative to find info and resources for studying and getting skills.:wink2: I don't think distance learning is going away altogether, I do think it is going to be restructured. :up:

ivanh3 · Aug 19, 2008

This is what has currently happened in the House
They are worried about excelsior students working in the states, but
what about those who are here on visas
Urge Congress to Support HR 5924: Legislation to Address Nursing
Shortage
Bill will provide visas for properly qualified RNs
While the shortage of nursing and healthcare workers persists, a visa
shortage has compounded the impact of the workforce shortage by
limiting the ability of American hospitals to hire foreign nursing
professionals.
The Emergency Nursing Supply Relief Act, (H.R. 5924), will help
alleviate the nursing shortage by providing visas for properly
qualified registered nurses to work in the U.S.

:wink2: I don't think distance learning is going away altogether, I do think it is going to be restructured.

I don't see any problem with a bill that allows for foreign trained nurses to come here easier. As the bill states they must be properly trained. Either we have a nursing shortage or we don't. I believe that we do. Many of these nurses tend to work in some of the "less fun" areas of nursing. I have worked with many foreign trained nurses and physicians and I see no difference in skills as compared to USA trained nurses. Pros: better nurse/patient ratio, same level of skills, increased patient safety. Cons: how to verify a nurse is "properly trained". I point out that this latter issue is also faced by countries that accept USA trained nurses.

Melinurse, you are correct. EC needs to restructure their program with some type of arrangement for clinicals. The time for the CPNE is over. It is expensive, too stressful, not a good indicator/predictor of nursing success, and as of now no guarantee that EC grads can even practice in their home state. Even in they can practice, often the employers have a different set of rules for EC grads. I am in a online masters program that offers structure, clinicals, and none of the complications I had to deal with as an EC student. Please don't think I am knocking EC. They have helped many better their lives, but they must update their programs to address the concerns of the various states and employers.

serenity67 · Aug 19, 2008

]I suppose if I'm honest, I'm really just upset about my own educational limbo. We DO have a nursing shortage and we do need help... even if it is assisted via qualified foreign nurses. I also don't have a problem with performing clinical hours, however at this time they aren't offered as part of the EC curriculum here in VA.

]I think what bothers me more than anything is the fact that the "missing link" to the LPN vs. Associate RN is the theory of "critical thinking" piece, not the clinical skills. I realize the two are related to some degree, but I think those of us who have worked for many years under the direction of an RN have grown in that line of thinking just by years of clinical experience.

]It would be nice if there could be some sort of acceptable "years worked as a licensed medical person" requirement prior to enrollment to the EC program that would make it more palatable for state BON's. In VA the new law states that an LPN curriculum must include 400 hours of clinicals and an RN program must include 500 hours of clinicals. The thought of having to complete an ADDITIONAL 500 HOURS seems a bit extreme to me. There are many things in an RN curriculum that I have ALREADY been LICENSED to do. Certain skills stay the same regardless of the difference in scopes of practice.

]I can only speak for myself, but it is unfathomable for me to understand why I am granted a license as an LPN, then told I need to repeat a "complete" clinical rotation of 500 hours to be trained to do a good deal of what I ALREADY have a license to do now... it's just mind boggling. I think the nursing profession has a multitude of issues that make advancement difficult. Anyway, sorry for rambling.

ivanh3 · Aug 19, 2008

Serenity67, I can completely empathize with you. In all of this mess, my biggest regret was my "critical thinking" that I should pursue an associates degree because "its faster" and "I can always go back for my BSN". For example, before I married my wife we were friends. I was just wrapping up my pre reqs and she was just starting hers. I went to EC (after giving up a spot at a local community college) and when she finished her pre reqs she enrolled at Emory University for their BSN program. I went for 2 years, and so did she. Bottom line: same amount of time in school and she has a BSN (she graduated 8 months after I did), she can work anywhere, and I have and associates. I am doing an associates to masters (1 year left out of 3) but I have spent waaaayy too much time in school for just an associates that some states and even some employers don't want.

I also understand about your experience not seeming to count. Believe me as a paramedic with 10 years pre hospital and 4 years in an ER, working side by sides with nurses who didn't know what I know or couldn't do what I did and being told I was below them on the medical food chain (including pay) was a hard pill to swallow. You don't know how many times I have witnessed a paramedic ER tech save a nurses butt in hectic ER room. In all fairness I have seen the reverse happen as well, but the point is other than Florence N. and nursing dx/care plans, there is very little a paramedic doesn't cover in paramedic school that wouldn't be learned in the new grad training at their first nursing job.

If I could offer any advice for you it would be this: take out the loans, go part time and get your bachelors at a brick/mortar school. Less time, less stress, and many more opportunities after graduation (like FNP, CRNA, or even law school). Even if you have already started with EC, I would just cut my losses. I read too much on these forums about people thinking that their home situations keep them from a traditional school. I bet if they really put their minds to it many (not all) of those would realize that they do have options other than EC. In any case, good luck with your limbo situation. I am sure you will have a positive outcome.

Grapenut · Aug 20, 2008

"In VA the new law states that an LPN curriculum must include 400 hours of clinicals and an RN program must include 500 hours of clinicals. The thought of having to complete an ADDITIONAL 500 HOURS seems a bit extreme to me. There are many things in an RN curriculum that I have ALREADY been LICENSED to do. Certain skills stay the same regardless of the difference in scopes of practice.

I can only speak for myself, but it is unfathomable for me to understand why I am granted a license as an LPN, then told I need to repeat a "complete" clinical rotation of 500 hours to be trained to do a good deal of what I ALREADY have a license to do now... it's just mind boggling. "

And this is the problem I come back to over and over. In the good ol' State of GA I did 700 clinical hours to get my LPN license. RNs are only required to get 1/3 of that. And yet, somehow the LPNs are the group they consider short? I work at a hospital that hires nurses from 6 local colleges in 2 states (Alabama and Georgia), so I actually work with these RN grads. None of them have had any higher clinical training than I have had, and none of them have had more 'theory' or more 'critical thinking' either. I can't exactly go in a pt's room and start shoving meds in people, performing procedures and being an advocate for the patient without critical thinking and the 'theory behind what I'm doing.' Why is it thought (and by whom) that LPNs aren't taught critical thinking - not just the how, but the why. We had to know and perform the nursing process. Our mantra is also "first do no harm." 'WE had to do clinicals." Yes, but not as many as us, at least not in the State of Georgia. And as for brick and mortar, I am 10 years older than the oldest posters I've seen here, I support 2 adults on my income with no financial help available so I work full time. So I have no options. California requires 860 clinical hours for RNs, and yet they made allowance for people in the middle of the EC program to be able to finish. If GBON is actually concerned for the welfare of the people of their state rather than their own personal agendas, they will give us a grace period to finish and be licensed, along with all those foreign nurses, to help with the nursing shortage. But now I'm rambling :no:

peanut88 · Aug 20, 2008

You're fortunate. Quite a few Excelsior grads in California are finding many hospitals and nursing registries will not employ them. It doesn't matter if they passed their boards and have license in hand.

peanut88 · Aug 20, 2008

Of course, online nursing programs are in danger. One would only have to read these postings. If you're considering an online or distance learning program -- STOP ! Go to your state board of nursing website. It will provide you with a list of approved programs. But don't stop at that. Take some time to read around. Look for board decisions, rulings, etc. See if any of them relate to your school/potential school.

rnlately · Aug 20, 2008

"In VA the new law states that an LPN curriculum must include 400 hours of clinicals and an RN program must include 500 hours of clinicals. The thought of having to complete an ADDITIONAL 500 HOURS seems a bit extreme to me. There are many things in an RN curriculum that I have ALREADY been LICENSED to do. Certain skills stay the same regardless of the difference in scopes of practice.
I can only speak for myself, but it is unfathomable for me to understand why I am granted a license as an LPN, then told I need to repeat a "complete" clinical rotation of 500 hours to be trained to do a good deal of what I ALREADY have a license to do now... it's just mind boggling. "
And this is the problem I come back to over and over. In the good ol' State of GA I did 700 clinical hours to get my LPN license. RNs are only required to get 1/3 of that. And yet, somehow the LPNs are the group they consider short? I work at a hospital that hires nurses from 6 local colleges in 2 states (Alabama and Georgia), so I actually work with these RN grads. None of them have had any higher clinical training than I have had, and none of them have had more 'theory' or more 'critical thinking' either. I can't exactly go in a pt's room and start shoving meds in people, performing procedures and being an advocate for the patient without critical thinking and the 'theory behind what I'm doing.' Why is it thought (and by whom) that LPNs aren't taught critical thinking - not just the how, but the why. We had to know and perform the nursing process. Our mantra is also "first do no harm." 'WE had to do clinicals." Yes, but not as many as us, at least not in the State of Georgia. And as for brick and mortar, I am 10 years older than the oldest posters I've seen here, I support 2 adults on my income with no financial help available so I work full time. So I have no options. California requires 860 clinical hours for RNs, and yet they made allowance for people in the middle of the EC program to be able to finish. If GBON is actually concerned for the welfare of the people of their state rather than their own personal agendas, they will give us a grace period to finish and be licensed, along with all those foreign nurses, to help with the nursing shortage. But now I'm rambling

I hear you loud and clear. I spent 12 out of 18 months doing clinicals 4 nights a week only to talk to RN grads to find out they performed much less. We were also taught to perform head to to assessments and take histories from patients.

Grapenut · Aug 20, 2008

I hear you loud and clear. I spent 12 out of 18 months doing clinicals 4 nights a week only to talk to RN grads to find out they performed much less. We were also taught to perform head to to assessments and take histories from patients.

Exactly my point. We learned the whole process. If you haven't learned to assess and make those judgment calls, then you are something other than a licensed nurse (or EMT . . .). As far as I can tell, the difference in GA, at least, between an LPN and a BSN or ASN is the core curriculum they had to take to get the college degree - not the depth of nursing knowledge. That's why we sarcastically refer to LPN as "low paid nurse" and RN as "real nurse". With no offense to the RNs - nursing school is hard and so is the core. But we LPNs just don't get no respect because we didn't have Humanities.

MauraRN · Aug 20, 2008

I am with Suesquatch on this. Nursing school instructors are for the most part evil, vindictive people, for some reason unknown to normal folks.

The most important thing you can do before going on to Excelsior is to call your state BON and reassure yourself that they accept Excelsior. Some states, such as FL, accept LPN-RN but have separate rules for Paramedic-RN. I am in Massachusetts and Excesior is accepted and held in high esteem because of the caliber of RN's coming from the program. If you are an LPN in LTC/sub-acute care, you are being paid for performing Clinicals!!! Check out your state thread on this forum as well for more specific info.

Good luck!

Maura