Enough nurses or not?

[dottavi]

Hi everybody, I'm new to this group. I live in italy but I'm interested to relocate in UK (scotland mainly) with my family, my wife is a nurse too with 13 years of experience. I started my project being sure that in Uk (like in many other countries) nurses haven't any problem to find a job in NHS or private sector. I read hundred of job serch in every site about nursing in UK but You say something different in your discussions so...where is the truth?

It's obvious that uk nurses should be favourite in selection but, are there enough english nurses now to cover uk requests? What about future prospectives? Is it possible to have recognized years of experience in italian nhs to start from a superior pay band?

Thank you everybody for your answers.

Danilo

[skylark, BSN, RN]

I guess it depends on the support you get from those further up the food chain.

I have indeed highlighted aspects of care before many times, and tried to address them. But many trusts have a "don't rock the boat" approach to standards of care and will not support any attempts to identify and address issues.

I cannot respect RNs who cannot manage to take basic observations or complete fluid balance charts. I used to do that as an HCA, decades ago before we were even called HCAs. And yet now we have RNS unable to do the basics.

I cannot respect those who are unable to understand basic pharmacology or give meds correctly. If I cannot delegate drug administration to another RN without having to check drug charts afterwards then we have a problem.

I have raised capability issues several times regarding individual nurses, but without managerial support, I cannot make the changes I would like.

I cannot support a system of nurse training that allows them to get to their final placement and still be incapable of basic care.

I can educate on an ad hoc basis within the clinical environment, but i cannot fix systemic failures of either nurse education or clinical standards.

[ZippyGBR, BSN, RN]

Wow thats great. Guess you aren't a single mom working a 60 hour week in two jobs!

Don't get me started on what I think of the CSA . . .

But you have kinda missed the point. The issue was that studying for NCLEX involved learning NEW stuff, my UK training did not even come close to preparing me for it. Biochemistry and pharmacology are not taught in any depth in the UK and consequently UK nurses are not equipped to undertake patient assessment or practice in their own right.

Let's try an example -

I worked for a good while in an acute assessment area, a short stay area that allowed further assessment and treatment once the A&E 4 hour period had elapsed.

Sometimes a patient would unexpectedly spike a high temperature. Here's what would happen.

Traditional/older UK nurses - writes the reading on the obs chart, and bleeps the doctor. Write copious noted in the kardex about how they notifiied which doctor and when. No further action taken by the nurse.

sounds about right, especially on certain medical wards or certain surgical subspecialities - especially those which kept their own dedicated junior rotas as long as the EWTD allowed it

Newly qualified UK nurse - does not have sufficieint clinical knowledge to recognise an abnormal temp, therefore just tells the charge nurse that the obs are done and then goes to lunch. I can't begin to recall how many times I have seen this happen, and then I as the nurse in charge cops it next time the doc shows up.

Filipino nurse - rechecks the temp with a second thermometer and documents findings. Obtains blood cultures while at the same time siting an IV access device, in anticipation of receiving orders for IV fluids and anti-pyretics. Explains to the patients the need to also obtain sputum, stool, and urine specimens. Considers isolating the patients if symptoms justify this. Contacts the doctor to inform and also request prescriptions. Commences a fluid balance chart, and documents all actions.

oddly enough what you claim a 'philipino nurse' would do was what the majority of the UK trained and educated Nurses i've worked with in emergency care, acute care and specialist tertiary services would do

This example is not just three individual nurses, its what I saw, time and time again. A difference in training, clinical knowledge base, and perception of the nurses' role.

English nurses talk a lot above moving away from being a doctor's handmaiden, but until they take a proactive role as practitioners in their right, it is unlikely to happen.

until Nursing management is wrenched from the cold dead hands of some of the trained nurses who have been away from clinical practice in clipboard, spotty frock and clippy cloppy shoes la-la land for the past 20 + years it'll be hard, not helped by the fact that Trusts have far less influence and exposure to the costs of medical staffing than they do to banding nurses appropriately to mandate a proper clinical Band 6 role.

[ZippyGBR, BSN, RN]

I guess it depends on the support you get from those further up the food chain.

I have indeed highlighted aspects of care before many times, and tried to address them. But many trusts have a "don't rock the boat" approach to standards of care and will not support any attempts to identify and address issues.

I cannot respect RNs who cannot manage to take basic observations or complete fluid balance charts. I used to do that as an HCA, decades ago before we were even called HCAs. And yet now we have RNS unable to do the basics.

I cannot respect those who are unable to understand basic pharmacology or give meds correctly. If I cannot delegate drug administration to another RN without having to check drug charts afterwards then we have a problem.

I have raised capability issues several times regarding individual nurses, but without managerial support, I cannot make the changes I would like.

I cannot support a system of nurse training that allows them to get to their final placement and still be incapable of basic care.

I can educate on an ad hoc basis within the clinical environment, but i cannot fix systemic failures of either nurse education or clinical standards.

save the martyr act , take off the rose tinted spectacles and step away from the keyboard , i've had the misfotune to work with Nurses who adopt this holier than thou attitude and oddly enough they come undone time and time again when either

1. their deficient practice comes into the spotlight

2. their 'education' and 'attempts to improve the service' cross the line into bullying and harassment with their constant running to tell tales ... it gets very interesting when they wreck the performance of a unit and management are asking them why ... yes you've saved money dear by letting the trust take your band 6 clinical nurses and by replacing some of your band 5s with band 3s but by losing the practitioner and/or extended skills of the 6s who went or were redeployed out of speciality anmd the extended skills of the 5s who buggered off when the clinical 6 role was removed ...

3. they don't ask for help when they should , becasue they deem their colleagues unworthy and there's an adverse outcome

[Silverdragon102, BSN]

Guys, we seems to be veering off topic a bit here, the OP is asking about finding a job as a EU citizen in the UK.

If you want to discuss the way things are taught, not taught and differences between other countries and how they work then please start a new thread

[AZ hopeful]

hmmmm.... shall i admit to being an older nurse proud of my uk training and i didn't need to make up any hours in any area and

i passed nclex first time in under an hour .... just 75 q's :yeah: :yeah:

and i did it with a couple of books, not years of studying and i've got kids and more than one job and i know how to look after patients, really sick patients and i know that i am not the exception

[AZ hopeful]

Guys, we seems to be veering off topic a bit here, the OP is asking about finding a job as a EU citizen in the UK.

If you want to discuss the way things are taught, not taught and differences between other countries and how they work then please start a new thread

Sorry SD, just catching up and was a 'little' insulted

[raij]

Hi. I have a question if anyone here would care to reply. I read somewhere from the NMC guide that the minimum total RLE hours required by NMC for foreign registered nurses is 2300. However I only have a total of 2256. Is there anyone out there who was actually granted eligibility despite this deficiency. Thanks big big.

[XB9S, BSN, MSN, EdD, RN, APN]

Hi. I have a question if anyone here would care to reply. I read somewhere from the NMC guide that the minimum total RLE hours required by NMC for foreign registered nurses is 2300. However I only have a total of 2256. Is there anyone out there who was actually granted eligibility despite this deficiency. Thanks big big.

No you have to meet all the requirements to gain registration

[crunchie]

The NMC website is the ONLY place to find factual and accurate answers, and you should be looking there rather than a chat forum.

I'm not at all sure about your comments that "obviously" English nurses should be favorite in selection. UK hospitals have recruited from abroad for many years, and choose to do so for a variety of reasons.

Often it is because the foreign nurses are cheaper, they choose not to take out pension schemes for example, if they plan on returning home at some point.

But mostly it is because UK nurse training is painfully basic compared to the rest of the world, and they can get a higher caliber of nurses elsewhere.

The Philippines are the preferred choice, their nurse training is based on the US system, hence it is far better, but their national economy is weaker than the Uk so they are happy to work for wages that Uk nurses would not consider as it is still far higher than they can earn at home.

Where exactly have you got this information from? UK nurses are very highly trained and have a more autonomous role than a lot of oversea nurses. As for overseas nurses being a higher calibre have you read the NMC hearings of late? 80% are foreign nurses. Half of them can hardly speak the language, how does that make them better nurses? and as for better pay all staff nurses start off as band 5's! I think you need to engage your brain before insulting British nurses.

[skylark, BSN, RN]

1. I work in London, England, so my "information" is gained first hand.

2. I have third year students, who are so woefully ignorant that most have never heard of basic nursing terms such as the Glasgow Coma Scale, MS, or know basic skills such as taking a blood pressure. Don't even get me started on their lack of injection technique. And yet they are due to qualify at the end of this placement.

3. The students are so inadequate in their knowledge and common sense that I would prefer to have a foreign HCA working with me.

4. We have had many many dialogues with the university, and have refused to sign off many students. However,rather than investigate the standard of training, the university simply sends them to repeat their final placement somewhere else, where presumably they ARE signed off.

5. The majority of nurses in my hospital have been 'imported' from either the Philipines or India. THey are competent, sensible, and great to work with.

Their training is far more complete, based on the US NCLEX syllabus, and therefore their knowledge base if far superior to that of many UK nurses.

5. If a relative is in hospital, I would far rather have a competent Filipino nurse care for them than a UK nurse without knowledge, who has made it through training not doing anything worthwhile because they are supernumery.

And for your information, I DID engage my brain before writing all my posts, thank you for insulting me without any good reason.

And before I wrote them, I took a good look around, so I could describe accurately exactly what I see. I am ashamed to be a UK trained nurse.

THere is no point clouding this topic with patriotism or nostalgia, the bare fact is that UK training sucks.

[bobby123]

I am a Filipino nurse who worked in the UK for 8 years and now in Australia.

Here's my two cents into this off topic discussion.

- the Philippine nursing syllabus is patterned after the US syllabus... it's a 4 year BSN course whereas our British counterparts study for 3 years but concentrate on Adult nursing (there's also Paediatric, Mental Health and etc as separate) That just makes our British counterparts more specialized whereas Filipino nurses have a more general approach.

- the reason why Philippine nurses' NCLEX passing rate is higher than that of UK nurses is because Phil nurses take the NCLEX exam almost immediately after passing their licence exam in the Philippines. Why?Obviously to chase their American dream and for some 'prestige' (found that somewhere in one of these forum threads)

- I have worked with British trained nurses and other nurses of other nationalities and there are good ones and bad ones too. Even here in Australia, I still work with a few POMs (Brit trained nurses) and they are as caring and professional as any other nurse.

[ZippyGBR, BSN, RN]

i see skylark still hasn't learnt her lesson about defaming the entire profession ...

we are still waiting for proof of some of your ludicrous assertions ...