Education Conspiracy

[Avid reader]

Does anyone see a huge difference between an ADN and a BSN prepared nurse, nursing skills wise? Very little of my BSN coursework have been utilized on the floor and to be honest, experienced Diploma nurses frequently possessed better skills. Sure, there was management and leadership skills, but unless that is your intent, I cannot see the point.

Personally, the nurse with desire and curiousity for her craft have always appeared to me better, at not only practical skills but also interpersonal. I acquired more debt but little else.

Is there collusion between the AACN and learning institutions pushing this agenda? Why is it so few nursing international bodies have adopted very little of this trend?

[Ruby Vee, BSN]

I don't care if you resent it, I am not here to fluff your ego.

WOW! Ok, then.

[Ruby Vee, BSN]

I can't comment on adn vs bsn because in my country the only way to be a nurse is with a bsn.

reader I'm really confused with you comment about nurses who just want to say on the floor and don't But avidrequire as much education as that's all they want to do. doesn't sound like a nurse to me. Sounds like someone that is stagnant and shouldn't be in health care. Someone that's done the bare minimum just to get a job because it sounds like it has all these benefits, then come in sites like this and complain about how awful nursing is.

Nurses in my country not only have to have bsn they also start post grad study when they start there first nursing job. And must continue to learn and do so many hours of professional development each year just to say registered.

life long learning is a requirement of being a nurse. You will never know it all. There's not one nurse out there that has completed all of their education. Health care changes so quickly, you have to say on top of it and continue to learn to be competent.

Remaining on the floor and being stagnant. Not wanting to learn and further themselves and their career is a joke of a nurse. I don't care if you have a bsn or adn. People that work hard, actually like there job and are interested in it, continue to learn and progress are what the profession needs. Not people doing it for the money or only having to work 3 days, which I hear so much with American nurses and it really pisses me off.

Again I don't know the difference between adn and bsn but I do know a good nurse, of anyone's watch nursing channels on YouTube I'm sure you know nurse bass, he has a adn and is exactly what I mean. The right nurse attitude who I would be happy to work with. Or Ashley Adkins who has a bsn that has the same attitude. It's not about your title or letters. Nursing is a career, something to be proud of. Not something that you should complain about or the opportunity to further you self.

But I will say 2 years does seem awfully short to learn everything.

Bedside nursing is not "staying stagnant". Bedside nursing requires constant continuing education, updates, certifications, etc. The fact that someone is a nurse because they want to take care of patients does not mean they are lessor than, nor does it mean that someone is more than because they want to transition away from the bedside.

[EDNURSE20, BSN]

Bedside nursing is not "staying stagnant". Bedside nursing requires constant continuing education, updates, certifications, etc. The fact that someone is a nurse because they want to take care of patients does not mean they are lessor than, nor does it mean that someone is more than because they want to transition away from the bedside.

Oh I agree. I love hands on nursing. I become a nurse to do that, not work in admin or management. Never said bedside is stagnant.

But regardless of your role, you keep learning and should want to take every opportunity you can. Complaining about further education because your just a bedside nurse is absurd. Bedside need it most, to keep up to date with everything.

And to avid reader who said I sound young and idealistic, should know this is mandatory in my country. I'm nit being idealistic because I believe in ongoing education, that's what it takes to maintain your reg.

Can't comment on the education differences between adn and bsn because Nurse education is different here, only bsn ni such thing as a adn. Only core nursing papers and 50% of the degree is working with a rn doing her job. Every placement is like that capstone thingy you guys do. Actual hands on, doing the job, just you and the nurse. Oh and it's only 20k for your whole degree. But I'm really surprised with how little hands on experience you get. 1 day a week in a group with a lecturer having one pt? How do you guys actually learn??? I know this totally irrelevant to your comment. But every one is taking about adns having more experience in there programme, but really I think both programmes need more experience and professionalism papers. And can see why people don't get bsn if they aren't even learning nurse education.

[future_RN, CNA]

I'm in an ADN program, and the only thing I wish was included in it was this class that another local BSN program includes is "role transition," at the end of their program. In that class they have essentially 3-12 hour shifts of clinicals where they work side-by-side with nurses. I feel like that prepares them so much for working on the floor and I wish my program had that. Other than that, our classes have been pretty similar minus the non-nursing classes and leadership classes for the BSN.

[adventuRNurse]

I went to nursing school and received my nursing diploma, went and took my NCLEX and got my RN. I had a TON of clinical experience and was very prepared to start working as a new grad. The nursing school I attended was part of a large teaching university hospital and even larger network. Almost all of the nurses that work in this network are graduates of the nursing school. I of course wanted to work there after, and did for 1.5 years. I was a charge nurse on evening shift. I got a different job after I told my manager I would be starting my classes for my BSN and they would be a certain night of the week every week. She wasn't supportive and said she couldn't guarantee she would let me do that. In shock, I thought about what that meant for me, found a new job and quit. Working at this hospital, I felt equal as an RN to any other RN, and was treated that way.

Started working at an even larger hospital network with Magnet status. They hired me with just RN behind my name, and supported and encouraged me to go back to school, offered to help pay for it. I started classes right away. I'm the only one on my unit where I work without my BSN (although I will have it by next month). I train and precept new BSN nurses regularly. When they find out that I don't have my BSN, almost all of them ask me if I'll be happy to get more money after I get my BSN. HAHA! The new nurses honestly think that they are making more money than me as new grads just because I don't have my BSN yet, and I have 4 years experience plus training them! Not true, also not true that I will make more after my getting the letters BSN after my name next month. Also not true that I have learned anything valuable that has added to the nursing care I deliver, after completing the extra classes I needed for my BSN. However, I did learn more about previous World Wars and Macroeconomics (eye roll!!!). I can't say that I learned any leadership skills taking these extra classes because I've been a charge nurse for 3 years. Management positions require a MSN at the hospital that I work. I can't say that BSN or Diploma new grads have more clinical experience, as I haven't trained any diploma RN's. I can say that the BSN new grads I've trained need a lot of coaching and teaching of clinical skills, as many did not get a lot of hands on skills experience during their programs, especially the crushed down accelerated program graduates. I understand though, who can learn all the basic skills of being a bedside nurse in a program that you fully have your BSN in 12 months? Diploma nursing schools are disappearing, the push is for 4 year BSN degrees. I don't regret the way I went about getting my BSN or feel that it was any less credited than a nurse who went to a 4 year college. Working while obtaining my BSN helped me become debt free, paid off all my nursing school loans, and paid out of pocket for all my BSN classes. I didn't have the luxury of my parents paying for a college degree for me, or supporting me through school. I found what I wanted to do and made it happen, in a way that worked for me. The new grads I train, have payments in student loans 600 some or more a month, and are forced to stay living at home with their parents, because they can't afford to pay their loans and living expenses.

[Avid reader]

So is there a conspiracy? I'm dead serious re the fact that in other countries having a BSN isn't required for working the floors and not even the manager's position except for more administrative positions. Again, not denigrating but I see this as getting out of control. Unless you are research bent or upper management inclined, since very little skills are added, why the push? Suspicious character me, it just doesn't seem to be benefiting anyone except the schools, the hospital re advertisement competiveness and possibly insurance companies who are not in hoc for the tuition.

[Spine_CRNA, BSN, RN]

It's absolutely benefiting the schools greatly. Nurses getting advanced degrees are just $$$ in the bank and I think an extension of the notion that everyone should go to college.

I'd like to bring Nobel Prize winning economist Daniel Kahneman into the discussion regarding *a benefit* to advanced degrees and one that I personally believe in. In a study he co-wrote, the team found more satisfying "life evaluation" associated with obtaining an education. I.e. You look back on your life and are satisfied with how you've lived.

[Horseshoe, BSN, RN]

So is there a conspiracy? I'm dead serious re the fact that in other countries having a BSN isn't required for working the floors and not even the manager's position except for more administrative positions. Again, not denigrating but I see this as getting out of control. Unless you are research bent or upper management inclined, since very little skills are added, why the push? Suspicious character me, it just doesn't seem to be benefiting anyone except the schools, the hospital re advertisement competiveness and possibly insurance companies who are not in hoc for the tuition.

The schools may well benefit from the current situation, but they are not the ones driving this, therefore no "conspiracy." A BSN program cannot require any RN candidate to attend their school. The "blame" lies in the increasing number of facilities that are demanding the BSN of the nurses they hire. While there is a nursing glut, they have the luxury to demand whatever education or certification or experience they like.

[RegularNurse]

The schools may well benefit from the current situation, but they are not the ones driving this, therefore no "conspiracy." A BSN program cannot require any RN candidate to attend their school. The "blame" lies in the increasing number of facilities that are demanding the BSN of the nurses they hire. While there is a nursing glut, they have the luxury to demand whatever education or certification or experience they like.

This is absolutely correct, and a true reflection of the current staff nursing landscape.

When hospitals in desirable areas have hundreds to thousands of applicants for a single opening, how else are they expected to thin the herd?

Being judged, not by the quality of your work, but by the amount of education you have is unfair, but the norm. This is the end result of the 2008 economic downturn in the US, and nursing being branded as a surefire way to make a decent living with minimal commitment. People flock to nursing simply because it is an attainable middle class job.

While I don't believe in an education conspiracy, I do think there is an education bubble at the graduate level. Enrollment in NP, CRNA, MBA, MHA, and other MSN programs has skyrocketed. In the future, the concern will not be the percentage of ADN RNs getting their BSNs, but the percentage of BSN nurses getting advanced degrees and being underemployed.

[RobbiRN, RN]

No nurse should ever be stagnant. Whether it's formal education or just CEUs, every nurse should make the effort to keep up with the latest developments in their particular field. Many states require the nurses to obtain continuing education as part of the license renewal process. I'm amazed that there are any states that do not

Bedside nursing is not "staying stagnant". Bedside nursing requires constant continuing education, updates, certifications, etc. The fact that someone is a nurse because they want to take care of patients does not mean they are lessor than, nor does it mean that someone is more than because they want to transition away from the bedside.

Thank you Horseshoe and Ruby Vee for a little reality orientation. I think one of the notions that brings passion to the ADN - BSN discussions are the insinuations that ADNs are not interested in advancing their careers and settle for "something less" by staying at the bedside. When everyone else does whatever they do, at the end of the day, the lives of the patients are in the hands of those of us who choose to be at the bedside. Can you really top that level of responsibility and reward? Stagnant? Are you kidding me?

[smrslr]

Whichever side of the fence you sit on, at the end of the day, we all bear the same "RN" after our name and sit for the same state board exam. As far as critical thinking goes, ADN and BSN are expected to graduate with the same clinical reasoning skills that allows you to pass the same NCLEX exam and begin an entry level nursing career. Sure, BSN opens up doors for advancement, but the type of nurse you become also has to do with your personality, ability to adapt and learn quickly, job experience, etc. Not all nursing skills will be learned in either program. A book can't teach you that gut feeling you get when something is not quite right or compassion. AND a little bit of common sense, goes a LONG way....you can be an all "A" ADN, BSN, MSN student, but can you apply that to a real situation? Not everyone is a great floor nurse, not everyone is a great nurse manager. Our jobs are stressful enough, can't we just stick together without arguing over who is better? Leave that to the doctors

[smrslr]

1000 likes! There is such a big push and pressure to continuously advance and obtain the next level degree, which is great....but what would happen if everyone advanced their careers to the NP or administrative roles? You have to have bedside nurses!! It is definitely not settling, especially if you love what you do!