Does anyone see a huge difference between an ADN and a BSN prepared nurse, nursing skills wise? Very little of my BSN coursework have been utilized on the floor and to be honest, experienced Diploma nurses frequently possessed better skills. Sure, there was management and leadership skills, but unless that is your intent, I cannot see the point.
Personally, the nurse with desire and curiousity for her craft have always appeared to me better, at not only practical skills but also interpersonal. I acquired more debt but little else.
Is there collusion between the AACN and learning institutions pushing this agenda? Why is it so few nursing international bodies have adopted very little of this trend?
Actually Horseshoe your nomenclature doesn't imply intelligence however your posts say otherwise. Your vocabulary and subject matter, points to education. It's whether you porifice that education well? Every one is entitled to their opinion and if you reà d various posts you will realize it's a discussion in a forum. I hold the opinion that floor ñurses, given the extent of NCLEX, doesn't need a BSN to practice safely and effectively. I supported that argument with the fact there are numerous ADN nurses who are exceptionally good as opposed to many BSN prepared who are quite inadequate. Experience counts and I know if in the unfortunate circumstance of having to choose experience over qualifications, I what my choice would be.
I cede said argument where teaching or research is apparent.
I do believe that academia is offering fluff padded coursework that brings in big dollars to their institutions. They are peddling their wares and the necessity of advanced degrees as a requirement in many fields. For example, the growing requirement for a BSN, when an ADN is really just as good. A bachelor's degree has become useless in most fields. One must get a masters in order to actually have the degree mean anything in the job market place. A physical therapist now has to get a PhD in order to practice at a job that pays less than nursing in my area. Previously a master's degree was the standard for that field.
I think higher education has then dumbed down the curriculum in the misguided notion that everyone should go to a 4-year University no matter what their capability. I think technical and trade schools are not pushed enough in our educational system. My daughters are in University now and say that a lot of kids really don't belong there. They spend a year or two racking up debt and partying, then dropping out. The admission standards at some colleges are too low. This practice devalues a bachelor's degree. So then they have to add on the master's degree in order to sort out the wheat from the chaff. The whole thing has become a racket in my opinion
You're exactly right. Three big reasons for pushing four year school are below:
"200 college and university campuses have closed during the last 10 years due to decreasing enrollments as baby boomers aged" (Nursing Spectrum, Jan. 9, 2012).
"For the past 40 years, institutions of higher learning have been relentlessly replacing professors on the tenure track with contingent faculty, typically part-timers, who cost a whole lot less" (The Weekly Standard, Nov. 16, 2015).
"Hard Times on Campus - Declining Enrollment Means Declining Revenue For Colleges" (Philadelphia Inquirer, Jan. 31, 2016)
Also with grade inflation, meritocracy has become a thing of the past. Professors realized that the more A's they give the better evaluations they get, the better the school looks to prospective students, which in the end means more revenue flowing into the institutions. When the matter was brought up at a Harvard faculty meeting, it was met with silence. When Princeton tried to take steps to reduce grade inflation, student complaints ensued and the idea was rescinded (The Suicide of Meritocracy, Aug 14, 2017, Harvey Mansfield). One of the earliest posts I read years on the topic of the BSN push was from a nurse who said; "How do these idiots expect us to pay for this?" The operative word here is "idiot". Because anyone that thinks the type of nursing school one graduated from makes the nurse; they are an idiot. There's a saying called "Book Smart, but Common Sense Ignorant" And I've seen many example of it coming from those in higher education.
The operative word here is "idiot". Because anyone that thinks the type of nursing school one graduated from makes the nurse; they are an idiot. There's a saying called "Book Smart, but Common Sense Ignorant" And I've seen many example of it coming from those in higher education.
Well, we've sure all seen them, just as we've seen crappy nurses who also barely passed their academic classes, crappy nurses with advanced degrees, and crappy nurses with less education. I've seen nurses of all educational levels here on AN who can't write even one truly coherent sentence; it's a mystery to me how one can get a college degree without the ability to write even at a high school level. People like to talk a lot about common sense as something that evades you the more education you pursue. That's pure BS. Common sense, being intellectually quick on your feet, etc. is just something you have or something you don't. It's not tied to education or lack thereof.
I've been a nurse for 22 years and have precepted my share of new grads. I personally have neither observed a huge deficit of "skills"in new nurses entering the field with BSNs nor a huge abundance of skills in new nurses entering the field with ADNs. I HAVE seen a noticeable superiority in that realm with Diploma nurses vs. both ADNs and BSNs. But let's be clear-that is something that is made up with experience, rather quickly in fact. A nurse who doesn't KNOW THEIR STUFF is dangerous, no matter how great she is at physical tasks associated with nursing. I do think the whole "critical thinking" thing is a myth often talked about in reference to BSN programs. I haven't seen that it's being formally taught to any nursing students, really.
Raw intelligence is important, as is a strong work ethic. But if you can't understand the "book stuff" you are supposed to learn, whether in your ADN program or your BSN, you are going to be less of a nurse, because that information is CRITICAL to the practice of nursing. If it weren't, any idiot could be a good nurse, placing IVs and foleys all danged day. There is far more to nursing than that.
Finally, I completely disagree with your assertion that the school one attends doesn't matter in the least. Folks, there are some crappy schools out there just churning out grads who either can't pass NCLEX, or barely manage it. They get jobs and don't make it through orientation, job hop because they can't cut it anywhere, or make mistakes that result in their firing. Those schools often struggle with accreditation, and we see the result of that when their graduates come onto AN upset that they can't get permission to test, or they have moved and the new state won't accept their credentials.
I have worked in several different fields in my adult life, and only in nursing have I observed such a disdain for the pursuit of formal education. Why is that?
I have worked in several different fields in my adult life, and only in nursing have I observed such a disdain for the pursuit of formal education. Why is that?
Well, we've sure all seen them, just as we've seen crappy nurses who also barely passed their academic classes, crappy nurses with advanced degrees, and crappy nurses with less education. I've seen nurses of all educational levels here on AN who can't write even one truly coherent sentence; it's a mystery to me how one can get a college degree without the ability to write even at a high school level. People like to talk a lot about common sense as something that evades you the more education you pursue. That's pure BS. Common sense, being intellectually quick on your feet, etc. is just something you have or something you don't. It's not tied to education or lack thereof.
I've been a nurse for 22 years and have precepted my share of new grads. I personally have neither observed a huge deficit of "skills"in new nurses entering the field with BSNs nor a huge abundance of skills in new nurses entering the field with ADNs. I HAVE seen a noticeable superiority in that realm with Diploma nurses vs. both ADNs and BSNs. But let's be clear-that is something that is made up with experience, rather quickly in fact. A nurse who doesn't KNOW THEIR STUFF is dangerous, no matter how great she is at physical tasks associated with nursing. I do think the whole "critical thinking" thing is a myth often talked about in reference to BSN programs. I haven't seen that it's being formally taught to any nursing students, really.
Raw intelligence is important, as is a strong work ethic. But if you can't understand the "book stuff" you are supposed to learn, whether in your ADN program or your BSN, you are going to be less of a nurse, because that information is CRITICAL to the practice of nursing. If it weren't, any idiot could be a good nurse, placing IVs and foleys all danged day. There is far more to nursing than that.
Finally, I completely disagree with your assertion that the school one attends doesn't matter in the least. Folks, there are some crappy schools out there just churning out grads who either can't pass NCLEX, or barely manage it. They get jobs and don't make it through orientation, job hop because they can't cut it anywhere, or make mistakes that result in their firing. Those schools often struggle with accreditation, and we see the result of that when their graduates come onto AN upset that they can't get permission to test, or they have moved and the new state won't accept their credentials.
I have worked in several different fields in my adult life, and only in nursing have I observed such a disdain for the pursuit of formal education. Why is that?
You're right, let me change the phrase "the type of nursing school" to what I meant "the type of nursing program". There are great ADN, 3 Year Diploma, and BSN RN Nursing Schools and then there are some that are not so good. Just recently a four year BSN Program at a University near me (I can not mention their name) was in grave danger of losing their accreditation due to abysmal first time pass rates on the NCLEX. There are excellent ADN, Diploma, and BSN prepared nurses just as there are some from each type of program that are just not good nurses. But they should each be evaluated on their own merits and not by whether they have an Associate's in nursing, a Diploma or a BSN. I've even worked with some LPNs who were better than many RNs.
I believe the true problem is that college is just not what it use to be!! We have lowered standards because we feel that "everyone is entitled to a degree" of his/her own choice. Thus, the difference between ADN or BSN is usually some fluff courses. That does not make one a better nurse. Yes, education is important, but that really isn't the issue. I'd take an ADN with 15 years of experience over a BSN new grad any day...especially if they are going straight to NP school before the ink on their BSN degree dries!!! If I were to interview an ADN new grad and a BSN new grad, I wouldn't even consider the degree as a deciding factor, period.
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Actually Horseshoe your nomenclature doesn't imply intelligence however your posts say otherwise. Your vocabulary and subject matter, points to education. It's whether you porifice that education well? Every one is entitled to their opinion and if you reà d various posts you will realize it's a discussion in a forum. I hold the opinion that floor ñurses, given the extent of NCLEX, doesn't need a BSN to practice safely and effectively. I supported that argument with the fact there are numerous ADN nurses who are exceptionally good as opposed to many BSN prepared who are quite inadequate. Experience counts and I know if in the unfortunate circumstance of having to choose experience over qualifications, I what my choice would be.
I cede said argument where teaching or research is apparent.