Duke Nursing, how do I pay for it !!!

CarpeDiem'15 · Mar 13, 2015

Farawyn - Congrats on your son getting into UNC. Also, my post was in reply to the person who posted AFTER you.

CarpeDiem'15 · Mar 13, 2015

Ok FOR ONCE, I want some factual, statistical evidence that refutes your statement, specifically for nurses! I keep hearing about this on these forums from people who justify spending a fortune on an education but I have worked and volunteered in numerous hospitals in the DC metro area and not one of the nurses in the best positions named dropped a top-ten school (not even University of Maryland which is currently ties with Duke but not as expensive!). Show me the stats and then we can have a coversation.

Define what you mean by "best position." Because there are many... MANY.... different nursing positions out there, and many... MANY.. subjective criteria for judging which one is the "best". You've got your bedside RNs in various units, your NPs of all different specialties, your CRNAs, your nurse educators, the nursing informatics analysts, nurse researchers. Did you speak with EVERY single one of them that worked in every single hospital you were in?

Second, you want to talk stats, but you open your comment with your own anecdotal evidence. I could turn the tables and ask YOU to show ME the statistics that all of the best nursing positions (as defined by you) at all reputable acute care hospitals in the entire DC Metro area (Maryland, northern Virginia, Baltimore) are occupied by nursing professionals who didn't graduate from a reputable nursing school.

There's a reason why these top nursing schools are an elite bunch; there aren't many of them, hence their graduates are a minority in the nursing profession as a whole. I'm pretty sure that the majority if this minority are NOT located in any one place in the US. Thus, to conclude that graduating from top nursing programs is worthless just because you couldn't locate a graduate of said elite programs in specific hospitals who occupied positions you subjectively think of as best... is at best faulty logic and at worst pure ignorance.

If you want to find out whether it's statistically worth it to attend a top program that's at the top of the list, in TODAY's nursing world where the BSN is rapidly becoming the basis for entry and the market is zipping towards saturation point, than call the schools and ask them for the percentage of their graduates who get jobs before / upon / 1 month out from graduation. Ask them whether they have stats for how many of their graduates go on to get grad degrees, and from where. I did so for Johns Hopkins and their answer to these questions was what convinced me to attend their school. Also, not all top ranked nursing programs cost an arm and a leg. As you stated, UMSON is an excellent school that is affordable, but I was not able to apply because they do not accept certain pre-req's online and I am not in a position to be able to take those pre-reqs in the States. However, even if I had applied and gotten accepted to both, I would have still have chosen Hopkins as it fits in better with my personal goals.

Farawyn · Mar 13, 2015

Farawyn - Congrats on your son getting into UNC. Also my post was in reply to the person who posted AFTER you.[/quote']
My post was for a couple of you!
And you're welcome! We are in NY, don't know if we want him that far, but it is one of his top choices and relatively cheaper than a lot of other schools, despite the out of state thing. He got in to some great NY and Boston schools with a few giving him money, so we shall see. He also applied to Johns Hopkins. Haven't heard yet, but he is already narrowing it down and I don't think it is on his radar. Fun stuff.

Jules A, MSN · Mar 13, 2015

Yes, I'm very sure about this. :)
I don't have the option of relocating for my job, so I will need to do everything I can to get that foot-hold, and the fastest, most expedient way to do it IN THIS AREA and in this market is to get a BSN from Hopkins with a stellar GPA.

As someone who I am guessing is not in this profession in this area right now I'm curious as to where you have gathered your iron clad information that JHH is "fastest, most expedient way" to get a job as a new grad in this area. From Hopkins itself?

I have worked extensively in the Baltimore/DC market and while I think it is wonderful that you are so enthusiastic about JH my opinion is they are not The Master of the Universe you are portraying. There are reputable facilities here who have their own opinions about Hopkins and their graduates and I can guarantee not everyone is as enamored with them as you are. While it might work in your favor in some instances it might work against you in others. The good news is there is a plethora of great facilities here so although the market is a bit tight there are always opportunities even for new grads. I have worked with new grads with an AA degree at a major teaching hospital in both DC and Baltimore.

As someone who actually has experience in this arena and has an idea of what "hiring managers WILL be looking at" your JHH education and "stellar GPA" while certainly respectable are unlikely to magically fling open all the doors you might think and in fact their grandiose attitude often has the opposite effect, imo. It sounds like you are willing to work for Hopkins' notoriously low end wages for years in exchange for the pedigree and a chance to incur more debt in their graduate program and thats fair but I'm only suggesting you consider that it might not be so black and white so perhaps keep an open mind about other more financially appealing options.

Best wishes and I hope our paths cross in the future!

OCNRN63, RN · Mar 13, 2015

Whew, where to start? First, let's begin with re-reading my post. NOWHERE do I state that all nurses who graduate from "non-designer" schools are inferior. Or that they are all bedside. Or all "bare minimum." That would be an incredibly asinine and ignorant thing to say, and like you I would not want to personally befriend anyone who would hold that view.
What I do state is that graduating from a top nursing program (and doing well in it!) puts nurses in a prime position to grab hold of the most opportunities in their nursing career, whether it's a prestigious grad school, management positions, or beating out the rest of the pack to land that new-grad RN job which is proving very elusive in today's saturated market. Case in point, if you have two new-grad RNs competing for a job where everything is equal except one graduated from a "designer" program like Duke and another from a "non-designer" program, I'm sorry but most likely the RN with ties to Duke will get that job. It is what it is and that is the reality of how every industry in this society operates (nursing, IT, finance, service, education, etc), whether you like it or not.
Second, you need to stop reading too much into the phrase: "just a bedside nurse". There's nothing wrong with being JUST a bedside nurse, if that is where your passion, talents and abilities lie. I apologize if the use of the term "just" somehow made that statement seem derogatory to you, but that was not the intent and if you read that statement in the entire context of my post, I believe it's pretty evident.
As for "bare minimum", that was from a different poster but again, you need to rub that chip off your shoulder and read that different post with an open mind. Never was it stated that ALL other nurses who graduated from "non-designer" schools are bare minimum; instead, the poster is saying, in not-so-many words, that the comprehensive nursing education she received from Duke enabled her to go above and beyond for her patients as a compassionate and intelligent nurse. Which doesn't mean that there aren't nursing schools out there that crank out crappy and definitely "bare minimum" RNs. I've read many posts on AN that complain about the quality of some of these new RNs being churned out by sub-bar diploma / ADN / BSN programs.
ALL of that said... next time take the time to read through the entire post(s) with an open mind and don't put false statements / sentiments in the mouths of the OPs.

I'd like to see some citations proving your assertion that nurses who graduated from a well-known university are given preferential treatment when it comes to hiring.

And if there is nothing wrong with being a bedside nurse, why did you feel the need to include the qualifier "just"?

I'm happy for you that you were accepted into the school of your choice. Good luck with your future endeavours.

imenid37 · Mar 13, 2015

Just spend your money wisely folks. I respect Hopkins and Duke, but a famous name isn't everything.

I graduated from a community college and am proud to say that back in the Stone Age when you got an NCLEX score, I earned one of the tops scores in the State of MD. I have a letter to prove it. My $27/credit education was true value for the money. In many Baltimore hospitals, our grads were highly sought after. I also have a BSN from Hopkins cheaper cross-town cousin, U of MD (currently Tied for #6 with Duke).

Back in the day, UMD was the #2 public nursing school BUT they did not have as high of a pass rate on NCLEX as my little community college on the west side of town. Maybe a famous name wows, but don't over estimate the power of that name, esp. for undergrad.

There are many fine nurses who graduate from the also ran universities, colleges, and schools of nursing who go on to great things. Here are a few of them.

Sue Hallick, RN Executive VP of Geisinger Nursing System (America's largest rural health system) and CNO- Diploma in Nursing from the Pottsville Hospital School of Nursing as well as a BSN from Penn State University
Kathleen White, RN PhD -BSN University of Cincinnati (Hopkins faculty and co-author of the Johns Hopkins EBP text. multiple awards for scholarship)

Kevin W. Sowers, RN, MSN, Duke University Hospital's president. BSN-Capital University School of Nursing

Patricia Benner, RN, PhD, FAAN AA and BA in Nursing Pasedena City College (nursing theorist, influential educator)

Jean Watson, RN, PhD Diploma Lewis Gale School of Nursing in VA BSN University of Colorado (nursing theorist, educator)

Marilyn Tavenner, RN Former Administrator of the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid BSN and MHA Virginia Commonwealth University

Karen K. Davis, PhD, RN, NEA-BC, Vice President of Nursing/CNO, Howard Co Gen Hospital (a Johns Hopkins facility) BSN Towson Univ

These are just a few prominent nurses who do not have an undergrad degree from a "designer" school. Some have grad degrees from the big names, but had more humble beginnings. If you dream big, you do not necessarily have to spend big. It may make a difference for your first job. After that, it is all you and your own hard work.

Being a bedside clinician isn't an "under achievement," it is the heart and soul of nursing. You may not gain notoriety with the masses, but you will become forever fixed the memories of those you touch. No small achievement, for sure!

PinkEagle · Mar 14, 2015

Define what you mean by "best position." Because there are many... MANY.... different nursing positions out there, and many... MANY.. subjective criteria for judging which one is the "best". You've got your bedside RNs in various units, your NPs of all different specialties, your CRNAs, your nurse educators, the nursing informatics analysts, nurse researchers. Did you speak with EVERY single one of them that worked in every single hospital you were in?
Second, you want to talk stats, but you open your comment with your own anecdotal evidence. I could turn the tables and ask YOU to show ME the statistics that all of the best nursing positions (as defined by you) at all reputable acute care hospitals in the entire DC Metro area (Maryland, northern Virginia, Baltimore) are occupied by nursing professionals who didn't graduate from a reputable nursing school.
There's a reason why these top nursing schools are an elite bunch; there aren't many of them, hence their graduates are a minority in the nursing profession as a whole. I'm pretty sure that the majority if this minority are NOT located in any one place in the US. Thus, to conclude that graduating from top nursing programs is worthless just because you couldn't locate a graduate of said elite programs in specific hospitals who occupied positions you subjectively think of as best... is at best faulty logic and at worst pure ignorance.
If you want to find out whether it's statistically worth it to attend a top program that's at the top of the list, in TODAY's nursing world where the BSN is rapidly becoming the basis for entry and the market is zipping towards saturation point, than call the schools and ask them for the percentage of their graduates who get jobs before / upon / 1 month out from graduation. Ask them whether they have stats for how many of their graduates go on to get grad degrees, and from where. I did so for Johns Hopkins and their answer to these questions was what convinced me to attend their school. Also, not all top ranked nursing programs cost an arm and a leg. As you stated, UMSON is an excellent school that is affordable, but I was not able to apply because they do not accept certain pre-req's online and I am not in a position to be able to take those pre-reqs in the States. However, even if I had applied and gotten accepted to both, I would have still have chosen Hopkins as it fits in better with my personal goals.

lol, we can go in circles about this all day but you still have yet to refute your original claim. Excuse my phrase "best position" because obviously this is completely subjective wording. "Best" for me would be a recently graduated nursing student who secured an ICU position in a Trauma 1 hospital, but I only say this because I want to eventually be a CRNA, and the ICU is where I would very much like to work. Of the nurses I personally spoke to who were able to secure what I personally defined as a "best position", none of them were JHU graduates, and yes this is from my own experience, but I'm not the one claiming that JHU grads are getting preferential treatment with nothing other than facts from the school. Who is to say that a JHU grad did apply for that ICU position but didn't get it? So to harp on what you previously stated, to conclude that graduating from top nursing programs equates to preferential hiring treatment specifically in the field of nursing without any evidence is "at best faulty logic and at worst pure ignorance." I'm not here to argue, but if I hear a so-called "claim", then I want to see the statistical evidence. You are more than entitled to your opinion and of course you are free to attend any school you choose, however, you made a generalized claim so I would like to refute that. Show me the stats and I will stand corrected, if not then is will be just another inflated comment on a forum, nothing more nothing less. There are studies and evidence that proves preferential hiring amongst candidates with Anglo-sounding names rather than African-American sounding names even with the same qualifications, just to give an example, so do be kind and paste the link to the study that demonstrated hiring preference among top-tier nursing graduates and their peers.

Best of luck to you in Hopkins and Congrats on getting in! :)

PinkEagle · Mar 14, 2015

I'd like to see some citations proving your assertion that nurses who graduated from a well-known university are given preferential treatment when it comes to hiring.

...yep, I'm still waiting too! :sarcastic:

PinkEagle · Mar 14, 2015

@PinkEagle, what I mean is in some cultures, prestige and name of school means everything and they could use that as a basis for hiring.

Oh, I'm well aware of this, I'm Nigerian-American and in Nigerian culture "prestige" and is the way of life...but this is the United States, not Asia not Africa, so anyone who uses "prestige" as a basis of hiring is literally begging for a lawsuit (lol God Bless America), and that's why I thought your point wasn't really relevant. I don't mean to sound abrasive, I work in the Capital and I'm surrounded by very passionate Americans who reiterate this to me on a daily basis! :)

dcwang · Mar 14, 2015

[COLOR=#000000]Not to go to a for profit school or school with bad reputation, I think is more important than prestige/state school. Perhaps, if one were to look for jobs out of state, I've heard some ppl getting hired because they went to a nationally prestigious school. However, as long as I attend a decent school, and not a for profit school, most importantly, my goal is to make the most of it, gain clinical skills, and be prepared to take the NCLEX to find the best job I can.

[/COLOR]

guest464345 · Mar 14, 2015

I went to Duke's ABSN. It's a nice school and all; I mostly had a good experience and met some great people. I'm not sorry I went, but I would not enslave myself to a huge loan payment for the privilege (I am older, and managed mostly with savings from a previous career plus a small amount of loans).

My clinical instructors while in the program, my preceptors and supervisors when I actually got a job....almost all community-college grads. Nursing school is mostly about getting trained to pass the licensing exam; the real learning is later, at work. If your job ends up being at Duke, you're paid the same crappy salary ($20.74/h) as other grads without huge loan payments. Watts and UNC are highly regarded - each program has strengths and weaknesses, of course - at a fraction of the price.

I will say that *working* at Duke Hospital helped me get jobs later, in other regions of the country - people recognized the name and commented on it. (And when they did, I smiled and refrained from mentioning the low pay and crappy working conditions for which Duke is known locally). No one cared at all about my nursing program, just that I had a license.

Unless you have money sitting around, I would say go somewhere cheap, get a job, and save the big bucks for grad school if you decide to attend. Although honestly, I was accepted into Duke's MSN program, decided it would be crazy to keep spending that kind of dough, and sought out state schools instead.

CarpeDiem'15 · Mar 14, 2015

As someone who I am guessing is not in this profession in this area right now I'm curious as to where you have gathered your iron clad information that JHH is "fastest, most expedient way" to get a job as a new grad in this area. From Hopkins itself?

I contacted JHU, UMSON, and Towson (only nursing schools feasible for me due to personal circumstances) before embarking on this adventure, and asked them what percentage of their BSN graduates from 2014 had jobs upon graduation. JHU had the highest at 80%, followed by UMSON and then Towson. The national average percentage of BSN grads with jobs at graduation is 59% (New AACN data on BSN-prepared hiringÂ |Â The American Nurse). Those asking for stats and citations showing the power of the "brand" on job marketability: these percentages show that graduating from top nursing schools does have a positive influence on ability to land jobs at graduation. And if this doesn't quite do it for you, I propose that you make three lists: Top 5, middle 5, and bottom 5 ranked nursing schools. Call each one, ask them what percentage of their BSN graduates get jobs at graduation, and I suspect you'll see a trend where the percentage is the greatest at the top and lowest at the bottom.

I have worked extensively in the Baltimore/DC market and while I think it is wonderful that you are so enthusiastic about JH my opinion is they are not The Master of the Universe you are portraying. There are reputable facilities here who have their own opinions about Hopkins and their graduates and I can guarantee not everyone is as enamored with them as you are. While it might work in your favor in some instances it might work against you in others.

No, not the Master of the Universe. Just an ace in my deck of cards to help me get my foot in the door at Johns Hopkins Hospital. But for future reference, which area hospitals would not be as favorably disposed towards JHU grads? That would definitely be good to know when I start applying for new grad positions.

As someone who actually has experience in this arena and has an idea of what "hiring managers WILL be looking at" your JHH education and "stellar GPA" while certainly respectable are unlikely to magically fling open all the doors you might think and in fact their grandiose attitude often has the opposite effect, imo. It sounds like you are willing to work for Hopkins' notoriously low end wages for years in exchange for the pedigree and a chance to incur more debt in their graduate program and thats fair but I'm only suggesting you consider that it might not be so black and white so perhaps keep an open mind about other more financially appealing options.

"Pedigree"? Ouch. But seriously, working at JHH... yes, the pay may be on the low end, the hours crappy... but it's not all about the money for me, or the prestige. I'm drawn to the fact that I'll be able to work alongside some of the world's brightest clinicians, gain exposure to some of the latest technology and serve a unique patient population (some of the sickest of the sick, which is what I really want to see... hope that doesn't sound too sick! ) that you normally wouldn't get a chance to see in other hospitals. Exciting stuff. Also, I said I wanted to aim for the #1 DNP program... but Hopkins university isn't the best in all DNP / master specialties. It doesn't have any programs for those aspiring to be CRNAs, which is a path I may end up wanting to follow.

Everything said, thanks for the advice. Yes, life has its black and whites but also the shades of grey in between, I'll be sure to keep that in mind on this nursing journey of mine. :)