The way that this Covid vaccine works is quite different from the flu shot. The Covid vax. is not a (dead) bacteria or virus being injected into your body. (With Pfizer & Moderna) RNA (called messenger RNA) that's been coded in a lab goes into your arm. The RNA has instructions, or a code, that gets deposited on the cell. The ribosomes of the cell make a spike protein. It looks similar to the spike protein on the surface of the actual Corona virus. Then your body is supposed to make antibodies (antigens) that goes after the spike protein and neutralize it.
The problem is that this has not been tested in any long-term studies, so, this is more of an experiment. We don't know whether or not the DNA gets permanently changed (possibly bad). We're talking about something that's not supposed to be in your body (made in a lab) that can bind to the surface of your cells and possibly may not be able to be reversed.
Also, since the drug is still being evaluated for long term adverse effects, pregnancy, etc., the FDA would not license the drug, but instead, put out as EUA... Emergency Use Authorization.
Psst, lock downs work. Total of 22 people dead, life has been fairly normal for the last six months.
Lockdowns work great - look at that little town in Italy that locked down early and quashed new cases. However, most of the population was elderly and able to SAH. With your logic we should just put an active TB patient in an open ward. "Lockdowns" bring another set of problems with which we are all familiar but one thing they don't start........positive Covid tests. Many more people that had the means to SAH didn't which has kept us on this merry-go-round of self-defeating behavior. Also, to HRoarke, it's probably not a good idea to get your medical information from .com sites. Just keep scrolling to a .org or .edu. and you will eliminate tons misinformation from non-medical writers.
Psst, lock downs work. Total of 22 people dead, life has been fairly normal for the last six months.
There’s no doubt that if a majority of people keep their distance from other people and minimize the amount of contacts they have, it will become harder for a virus to spread.
But I think that the best strategies and what kept transmission in one country low and high in another, will be analyzed for years to come. I am 100% convinced that there are many factors involved. Distancing is very likely a major player, but I suspect the issue is complex and multi-factorial.
I don’t know if you or someone else cherry-picked the countries in the above graph? I say cherry-picked because the picture would have become much more muddled if for example France and Italy had been included. They’ve been right up there with the high transmission countries that were included. The graph would no longer have been able to be used as ”evidence” that lockdowns work.
I think it’s interesting to try to figure out why this pandemic has behaved the way it has. I’ve been jotting down some numbers along the way and I’ll include a couple of them here to see if anyone has any thoughts on them.
Germany recorded 14.96 deaths per 100,000 on December 26, 2020. That’s almost a year into the pandemic and at the time their numbers were quite low compared to many European countries as well as the U.S. Today the number has risen to 102.39/100,000. That’s almost a seven-fold increase in less than six months compared to fatalities they suffered for the first year. Does anyone know why? It’s not like they haven’t tried to mitigate the spread since the new year started.
France, Spain and Italy and many other European countries have had various versions of lockdowns including curfews this Winter and Spring. Yet the second and third waves have been brutal.
In mid-November 2020 (almost a year in), Covid-19 related deaths per 100.000 were almost three times as high in Spain compared to Portugal. (87.26/100.000 and 31.61/100.000 respectively). They are neighboring countries. Today they are virtually equal (167.59 and 165.47). Why? Does anyone know? I don’t.
One thing I’ve noticed is that the island nations in Europe (Island, Cyprus and Malta) all have among the lowest Covid-19 fatalities in Europe. It makes sense that a country surrounded by water is easier to isolate from the rest of the world. But is that the reason? Again, I don’t know.
How about seasons and their possible effect on the spread of the virus? The pandemic has been going on for two winters in the northern hemisphere, but only one Winter in the southern hemisphere. Now as the southern hemisphere is approaching Winter again, vaccinations have started and we will thankfully see lower mortality rates. Could seasons be one of many factors that has shaped the way this pandemic has evolved?
I believe that countries that lean authoritarian and who don’t have to consider individual freedoms probably find it easier to control the spread of a contagion. For societies that are more free it is a delicate balancing act to protect citizens from a virus (which I personally believe is a moral imperative) while still preserving vital freedoms. I really don’t think there are any easy answers.
On that note, I was deeply dismayed when I read that Australia had made it illegal for Australiancitizens to return to Australia from India. Quarantine and testing on return would seem prudent, but not being able to return to your own country at all?! For an Australian citizen, returning from India is now a criminal offense, punishable by fines or up to five years in jail. The world has gone mad (in my opinion).
Time goes by and the diagnostic criteria/testing improves in accuracy. I would also be curious as to how many of this increase in autism is from formal/internet self diagnosis
Autistic kids were locked in asylums because they were believed to be schizophrenic. I can't remember where I read the article about a young boy who's physician parents kept him at home to be raised in the deep South. This was pre-1960 because the word "autism" wasn't even used much then. That child grew up to be functional and developed a great sense of humor. When people in town learned of some autistics' math skills, they would ask him how many bricks were on the side of a certain building in town. He would give them an answer which they believed to be true. In adulthood he admitted that he always made the numbers up:)
Specializes in Mental Health, Gerontology, Palliative.
6 hours ago, subee said:
With your logic we should just put an active TB patient in an open ward. "
Wow, thats a great way to add 2+2 and make it equal 10.
The active covid cases were also isolated from the rest of the community, no one would have been dumb enough to stick a postive covid case in an open ward with non covid cases.
And I'm not sure how to say this without being passive agressive. I live in a country where we have a total death rate of 22 people. Not 22 hundred, or 22 thousand.
We are also pretty much almost back to normal life wise. You will; forgive me if we don't take health advice from the country with the highest number of covid cases and the highest number of covid cases in the world.
The USA royally ***ed it up and half a million people died.
Wow, thats a great way to add 2+2 and make it equal 10.
The active covid cases were also isolated from the rest of the community, no one would have been dumb enough to stick a postive covid case in an open ward with non covid cases.
And I'm not sure how to say this without being passive agressive. I live in a country where we have a total death rate of 22 people. Not 22 hundred, or 22 thousand.
We are also pretty much almost back to normal life wise. You will; forgive me if we don't take health advice from the country with the highest number of covid cases and the highest number of covid cases in the world.
The USA royally ***ED it up and half a million people died.
Subee will have to confirm, but to me the part of their post that you’re reacting to sounded like it was addressing HRoark’s post about lockdowns and masks working or not working, rather than your post with the graph. That seems most logical to me if you read Subee’s entire post. The TB reply to your claim that lockdowns work is nonsensical. Something I’ve never noticed Subee being. It does however match the aforementioned mask/lockdown post.
The U.S. has a population more than sixty times that of New Zealand, don’t they? So when they have a widespread epidemic, the number of cases and deaths will naturally be high. However they don’t have the highest number per capita of either cases or deaths. But they are among the countries who have been hit hard by this pandemic.
Perhaps just be thankful that you have been relatively spared compared to many other countries where people are still dying by the dozens, hundreds or even thousands each and every day. New Zealand’s response to the pandemic appears to have successfully minimized cases and deaths. But it’s not a certain thing that the same response would have generated the exact same outcome in other countries. Many countries did in fact implement lockdowns around the same time you did but with very different results.
I personally suspect that timing has a lot to do with it. If you ”lock down” before the virus has penetrated into a society/community it’s probably quite effective, but of course there’s always the risk that it will reappear once you ease restrictions. However if the spread has gathered a certain critical momentum before the lockdown, I think you’ll have a much harder time getting it back under control. And the spread probably flew under the radar for a couple of weeks and gained traction before many countries in the early days of the pandemic realized exactly how extensive the problem was.
Subee will have to confirm, but to me the part of their post that you’re reacting to sounded like it was addressing HRoark’s post about lockdowns and masks working or not working, rather than your post with the graph. That seems most logical to me if you read Subee’s entire post. The TB reply to your claim that lockdowns work is nonsensical. Something I’ve never noticed Subee being. It does however match the aforementioned mask/lockdown post.
The U.S. has a population more than sixty times that of New Zealand, don’t they? So when they have a widespread epidemic, the number of cases and deaths will naturally be high. However they don’t have the highest number per capita of either cases or deaths. But they are among the countries who have been hit hard by this pandemic.
Perhaps just be thankful that you have been relatively spared compared to many other countries where people are still dying by the dozens, hundreds or even thousands each and every day. New Zealand’s response to the pandemic appears to have successfully minimized cases and deaths. But it’s not a certain thing that the same response would have generated the exact same outcome in other countries. Many countries did in fact implement lockdowns around the same time you did but with very different results.
I personally suspect that timing has a lot to do with it. If you ”lock down” before the virus has penetrated into a society/community it’s probably quite effective, but of course there’s always the risk that it will reappear once you ease restrictions. However if the spread has gathered a certain critical momentum before the lockdown, I think you’ll have a much harder time getting it back under control. And the spread probably flew under the radar for a couple of weeks and gained traction before many countries in the early days of the pandemic realized exactly how extensive the problem was.
I realize that the case of the March, 2020 lockdown in a remote location in Italy was an outlier of "lockdown" and that's why I qualified it. But it is a close cousin to NZ because they were able to isolate early with a compliant citizenry. This small lockdown became a virtual island very early in the Italian pandemic and was composed mostly of elderly, non-working people. This situation represented a set of controlled variables IMHO that would lead a rational person to believe that lockdowns can be successful. We cannot look to the US to argue whether lockdowns are successful because we didn't really have any. In fact, I would say that Trump crafted the "anti-lockdown" like a fine wine so we never stood a chance of taking any solice in our numbers. OUR government made sure that we kept it as anti-infective control as possible.
I realize that the case of the March, 2020 lockdown in a remote location in Italy was an outlier of "lockdown" and that's why I qualified it. But it is a close cousin to NZ because they were able to isolate early with a compliant citizenry. This small lockdown became a virtual island very early in the Italian pandemic and was composed mostly of elderly, non-working people. This situation represented a set of controlled variables IMHO that would lead a rational person to believe that lockdowns can be successful. We cannot look to the US to argue whether lockdowns are successful because we didn't really have any. In fact, I would say that Trump crafted the "anti-lockdown" like a fine wine so we never stood a chance of taking any solice in our numbers. OUR government made sure that we kept it as anti-infective control as possible.
I’m more confused than ever. I don’t feel that your latest post addresses any of the points I was trying to make in my post that you just quoted ?
First of all, Tenebrae posted a graph with cherry-picked countries and wrote ”Psst, lockdownswork”.
You quoted Tenebrae’s post and wrote (among other things): ”WithyourlogicweshouldjustputanactiveTBpatientinanopenward”.
Was that really in response to Tenebrae’s graph and claim that lockdowns work?
Because Tenebrae appeared to believe it was. (I didn’t but I could be wrong).
Tenebrae then quotes your ”TB/open ward” post and writes ”Wow, thatsagreatwaytoadd2+2andmakeitequal10”. Tenebrae then goes on to say (still in reply to your TB post): ”Youwillforgivemeifwedon’ttakehealthadvicefromthecountrywiththehighestnumberofCovidcasesandthehighestnumberofCovidcases (likely a typo and meaning deaths instead) intheworld”.
So Subee, did you intend your example regarding the TB ward as a direct response to Tenebrae’s graph and claim that lockdowns work? Were you in fact offering New Zealand advice on how to deal with the pandemic?
I was looking for clarification from you as it seemed that Tenebrae got a bit upset about your TB/open ward example.
Do you see why I’m confused? ?
Now on to some of the points I was trying to make. Obviously notverysuccessfully.
1. Thegraph.
I wasn’t arguing that lockdowns work. I wasn’t arguing that lockdowns don’t work.
I was arguing the fact that the graph presented with just a select few countries included doesn’t prove a darn thing, one way or the other.
I wasn’t claiming that the U.S. had a lockdown.
I wasn’t offering an opinion on the U.S. strategy (or lack thereof).
My point was that several countries that didhave lockdowns still had the pandemic evolve in the same way or in a similar way as the countries presented in the graph as the ”high transmission examples”. People got sick and died in large numbers despite the lockdowns. How would it have looked if these countries hadn’t implemented all the lockdown measures? We need mathematical modelling to even begin to guesstimate and a large number of factors would have to go into that model. And as I said, the result would be a guesstimate and span a large range of possible outcomes.
2. Italy.
Subee, I’m not sure which Italian village you’re thinking about? Italy suspended all flights to and from China on January 31, 2020 and declared a state of emergency. In February a large part of northern Italy was placed in quarantine and on March 9, 2020 all 60 million+ Italians were placed in lockdown.
I have family living in Italy and one of my physician coworkers worked in an Italian hospital during the the first wave. The country was completely shut down. Italy was one of the hardest hit countries during the first wave and they have continued to battle this pandemic since then.
I suspect they would have been in even worse shape if they hadn’t had the national verystrict lockdown. But comparing different countries who all had lockdowns and realizing that the result has been quite different in many countries, should be a clue that there are more factors involved.
If this link is accurate, New Zealand began their lockdown on March 21, 2020. That’s about two weeks after Italy locked down.
I think the most accurate claim we can make about lockdowns at this point in time is that: lockdowns appear to work under a certain set of (not yet completely identified) circumstances and lockdowns can likely be one of several other useful ”weapons” in a pandemic-fighting orificenal.
3. U.S. casesandmortality.
My point regarding the statement that the U.S. is the country with the highest number of Covid cases and deaths is that if a country with a third of a billion citizens have a widespread epidemic with many deaths, then the number of deaths will be a BIG number. When a country with only a fraction of the bigger country’s amount of citizens has a proportionate number of deaths, that number will of course be much smaller.
Which is why we compare mortality rates by number of deaths per something (usually 100,000). Only then will you get an accurate comparison.
Yes, the U.S. has had a large number of cases, but the claim that was made that you’ve had the highest number in the world is in my opinion misleading.
Hungary has ”only” had about 29,000 Covid-19 related deaths. Doesn’t sound like much compared to the 580,000+ deaths in the U.S., but Hungary has had 65.5% more Covid deaths compared to the U.S. It’s the same as if the U.S. would have had close to a million deaths.
I realize that you understand this part. But this was the basis of my objection to the way the claim that the U.S. has had the highest number of cases and deaths in the world. I think that arguing like that is as misleading as that cherry-picked graph.
I dunno... Reading your reply to me I just feel that we somehow got our wires crossed?
I’m more confused than ever. I don’t feel that your latest post addresses any of the points I was trying to make in my post that you just quoted ?
First of all, Tenebrae posted a graph with cherry-picked countries and wrote ”Psst, lockdownswork”.
You quoted Tenebrae’s post and wrote (among other things): ”WithyourlogicweshouldjustputanactiveTBpatientinanopenward”.
Was that really in response to Tenebrae’s graph and claim that lockdowns work?
Because Tenebrae appeared to believe it was. (I didn’t but I could be wrong).
Tenebrae then quotes your ”TB/open ward” post and writes ”Wow, thatsagreatwaytoadd2+2andmakeitequal10”. Tenebrae then goes on to say (still in reply to your TB post): ”Youwillforgivemeifwedon’ttakehealthadvicefromthecountrywiththehighestnumberofCovidcasesandthehighestnumberofCovidcases (likely a typo and meaning deaths instead) intheworld”.
So Subee, did you intend your example regarding the TB ward as a direct response to Tenebrae’s graph and claim that lockdowns work? Were you in fact offering New Zealand advice on how to deal with the pandemic?
I was looking for clarification from you as it seemed that Tenebrae got a bit upset about your TB/open ward example.
Do you see why I’m confused? ?
Now on to some of the points I was trying to make. Obviously notverysuccessfully.
1. Thegraph.
I wasn’t arguing that lockdowns work. I wasn’t arguing that lockdowns don’t work.
I was arguing the fact that the graph presented with just a select few countries included doesn’t prove a darn thing, one way or the other.
I wasn’t claiming that the U.S. had a lockdown.
I wasn’t offering an opinion on the U.S. strategy (or lack thereof).
My point was that several countries that didhave lockdowns still had the pandemic evolve in the same way or in a similar way as the countries presented in the graph as the ”high transmission examples”. People got sick and died in large numbers despite the lockdowns. How would it have looked if these countries hadn’t implemented all the lockdown measures? We need mathematical modelling to even begin to guesstimate and a large number of factors would have to go into that model. And as I said, the result would be a guesstimate and span a large range of possible outcomes.
2. Italy.
Subee, I’m not sure which Italian village you’re thinking about? Italy suspended all flights to and from China on January 31, 2020 and declared a state of emergency. In February a large part of northern Italy was placed in quarantine and on March 9, 2020 all 60 million+ Italians were placed in lockdown.
I have family living in Italy and one of my physician coworkers worked in an Italian hospital during the the first wave. The country was completely shut down. Italy was one of the hardest hit countries during the first wave and they have continued to battle this pandemic since then.
I suspect they would have been in even worse shape if they hadn’t had the national verystrict lockdown. But comparing different countries who all had lockdowns and realizing that the result has been quite different in many countries, should be a clue that there are more factors involved.
If this link is accurate, New Zealand began their lockdown on March 21, 2020. That’s about two weeks after Italy locked down.
I think the most accurate claim we can make about lockdowns at this point in time is that: lockdowns appear to work under a certain set of (not yet completely identified) circumstances and lockdowns can likely be one of several other useful ”weapons” in a pandemic-fighting orificenal.
3. U.S. casesandmortality.
My point regarding the statement that the U.S. is the country with the highest number of Covid cases and deaths is that if a country with a third of a billion citizens have a widespread epidemic with many deaths, then the number of deaths will be a BIG number. When a country with only a fraction of the bigger country’s amount of citizens has a proportionate number of deaths, that number will of course be much smaller.
Which is why we compare mortality rates by number of deaths per something (usually 100,000). Only then will you get an accurate comparison.
Yes, the U.S. has had a large number of cases, but the claim that was made that you’ve had the highest number in the world is in my opinion misleading.
Hungary has ”only” had about 29,000 Covid-19 related deaths. Doesn’t sound like much compared to the 580,000+ deaths in the U.S., but Hungary has had 65.5% more Covid deaths compared to the U.S. It’s the same as if the U.S. would have had close to a million deaths.
I realize that you understand this part. But this was the basis of my objection to the way the claim that the U.S. has had the highest number of cases and deaths in the world. I think that arguing like that is as misleading as that cherry-picked graph.
I dunno... Reading your reply to me I just feel that we somehow got our wires crossed?
???
YES! My response was meant for HRoark to whom Tenebrae was responding. That's why you are mac AWAKE and I am SLEEPY Subee and I'm so sorry you spent so many elections in "splaining to me. Thank you for not making me appear insane. In the spirit of the topic I am adding this article that came up in today's Medscape. No, it's not a proven fact but will probably generate more research that could clarify that RNA doesn't "mess with your DNA" but COVID can indeed modify your DNA:https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/950945?src=wnl_edit_tpal&uac=264160PN&impID=3372057&faf=1
YES! My response was meant for HRoark to whom Tenebrae was responding. That's why you are mac AWAKE and I am SLEEPY Subee and I'm so sorry you spent so many elections in "splaining to me. Thank you for not making me appear insane. In the spirit of the topic I am adding this article that came up in today's Medscape. No, it's not a proven fact but will probably generate more research that could clarify that RNA doesn't "mess with your DNA" but COVID can indeed modify your DNA:https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/950945?src=wnl_edit_tpal&uac=264160PN&impID=3372057&faf=1
It printed wasted "elections" instead of wasted "electrons" in the above.
Specializes in Mental Health, Gerontology, Palliative.
15 hours ago, subee said:
YES! My response was meant for HRoark to whom Tenebrae was responding. That's why you are mac AWAKE and I am SLEEPY Subee and I'm so sorry you spent so many elections in "splaining to me. Thank you for not making me appear insane. In the spirit of the topic I am adding this article that came up in today's Medscape. No, it's not a proven fact but will probably generate more research that could clarify that RNA doesn't "mess with your DNA" but COVID can indeed modify your DNA:https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/950945?src=wnl_edit_tpal&uac=264160PN&impID=3372057&faf=1
Thanks for the clarification. Sorry for the snark. I was really surprised because usually you didn't seem like that kind of person. So glad to know that you arent
I hope the OP isn't a nurse, because it makes me sad to know that a nurse is out there practicing who either a) doesn't remember some biology basics, b) is too lazy to research and refresh said biology basics, or c) doesn't believe the science behind those biology basics, in which case nursing is probably not the field for you because "evidence based practice" is based precisely on this kind of science. To top it off, they're probably out there spreading this misinformation to people who respect them because they're "a healthcare professional". You really don't know if the mRNA will affect the DNA or not? come on now.
subee, MSN, CRNA
1 Article; 6,178 Posts
Lockdowns work great - look at that little town in Italy that locked down early and quashed new cases. However, most of the population was elderly and able to SAH. With your logic we should just put an active TB patient in an open ward. "Lockdowns" bring another set of problems with which we are all familiar but one thing they don't start........positive Covid tests. Many more people that had the means to SAH didn't which has kept us on this merry-go-round of self-defeating behavior. Also, to HRoarke, it's probably not a good idea to get your medical information from .com sites. Just keep scrolling to a .org or .edu. and you will eliminate tons misinformation from non-medical writers.