Doctoral degree to become an NP???

Published

The American Association of Colleges of Nursing (AACN) is calling for the requirement of doctorate in nursing for advanced practice nurses, such as nurse practitioners, nurse midwives, clinical nurse specialists, and nurse anesthetists. This new degree will be called a Doctor of Nursing Practice and, if the AACN has its way, will become the entry level for advanced nursing practice.

AACN Position Statement on the Practice Doctorate in Nursing

Specializes in behavioral health.

As a prospective NP student, I am definitely discouraged by the DNP requirement. Arizona has discontinued the masters NP programs and I can't move. I can't afford out-of-state tuition and the few online programs that charge in-state don't have psychiatric specialties. I do think the extra DNP curriculum is too general and includes a lot of stuff I don't care about. Right now, I am desperate to get out of floor nursing after only 6 months. I'm also not thrilled with doing a full-time online program. What ever happened to a classroom? At heart, I'm a bit of an academic nerd, so I'm destined for more school =P

Up Vote Up Vote ×

Whew! 51 pages and only 1 that I saw going for the NNP. My question is that is this DNP for all NP programs or for the FNP programs? From the research I've done so far, before even getting into the clinical portion of the NNP, we need at least two years experience in a NICU with at least one year in a level III. The masters program at Rush (my first choice) is 68 credits....that is a lot more than the 30 or so hours for an FNP. If a DNP is required for the NNP, I'm looking at increasing my clinical knowledge to take care of these little ones...any NNPs that can comment?

Kris

Up Vote Up Vote ×
Specializes in Education, FP, LNC, Forensics, ED, OB.
whew! 51 pages and only 1 that i saw going for the nnp. my question is that is this dnp for all np programs or for the fnp programs? from the research i've done so far, before even getting into the clinical portion of the nnp, we need at least two years experience in a nicu with at least one year in a level iii. the masters program at rush (my first choice) is 68 credits....that is a lot more than the 30 or so hours for an fnp. if a dnp is required for the nnp, i'm looking at increasing my clinical knowledge to take care of these little ones...any nnps that can comment?

kris

if dnp becomes the terminal degree, it will apply to all levels of apn: cnm, np, cns, crna; not just to individual specialty areas for the np.

Up Vote Up Vote ×
Specializes in Trauma,ER,CCU/OHU/Nsg Ed/Nsg Research.
  • Translation and Synthesis of Evidence for Optimal Outcomes
  • Quantitative Research Methods
  • Epidemiology and Environmental Health
  • Legal and Ethical Issues
  • Clinical Genomics Advanced Seminar
  • Practice Management
  • Informatics

Do they really think I would pay good money (not to mention the time investment) for a ciriculum like this? And this is going to enhance my practice how? I thought this was a CLINICAL Doctorate:stone

You are probably not going to be able to avoid taking research-based courses, nor statistical analysis courses for any doctoral program- clinical or not. Courses like these are the cornerstone of doctoral ed. everywhere. As for the others, they seem pretty useful to me.

Up Vote Up Vote ×

BBFRN,

Shouldn't most of these courses be covered in a MSN already? I would think that an APN at the Master's level should already be able to utilize research, do research, and have some understanding of computers. Tthese courses would benefit someone in a PhD program but I think the problem is that many dnp programs claim to be more clinically focused. How do these courses contribute to actual clinical knowledge? Why not make the program more like a residency or fellowship with mostly clinical time at the bedside with conferences throughout the week, like real graduate medical education to give real physiologic or pharmacologic knowledge for patient care.

You are probably not going to be able to avoid taking research-based courses, nor statistical analysis courses for any doctoral program- clinical or not. Courses like these are the cornerstone of doctoral ed. everywhere. As for the others, they seem pretty useful to me.

  • Translation and Synthesis of Evidence for Optimal Outcomes
  • Quantitative Research Methods
  • Epidemiology and Environmental Health
  • Legal and Ethical Issues
  • Clinical Genomics Advanced Seminar
  • Practice Management
  • Informatics

Do they really think I would pay good money (not to mention the time investment) for a ciriculum like this? And this is going to enhance my practice how? I thought this was a CLINICAL Doctorate:stone

Up Vote Up Vote ×

end result educators no clinicians doing the planning. more padding: more money and more job security.

  • translation and synthesis of evidence for optimal outcomes someone's job security
  • quantitative research methods someone's job security
  • epidemiology and environmental health i lean to someone's job security but might be good
  • legal and ethical issues i lean to someone's job security but might be good
  • clinical genomics advanced seminar what is this?
  • practice management i lean to someone's job security but might be good
  • informatics someone's job security

unless the programs are clinically based with a increased emphasis on what really matters: pharmacology, a&p, increased clinical hours... if it's supposed to be a clinical program make it a clinical program...

here is one 4 year degree example of a doctor in medicine (invented especially to supply doctors for rural health care):

year 1 & 2

- biomedical problems program (basic medical sciences are learned through the study of clinical problems).

- fundamentals of clinical practice program (includes the clinical skills course, the medical ethics course, and the community office practice course).

- community medicine program (this program is designed to familiarize students with concepts of population-based medicine and the application of these concepts in primary care settings in rural and underserved areas of georgia. in the first year, students learn about the basic concepts in the population-based medicine course. the students then apply these concepts by completing a project during a two-week visit to a rural community practice during community science 1. during year two, students take a course in biostatistics and the application of biostatics in the evidence-based medicine course, followed by another 4 week project to apply community-based and evidence-based principles in the community in community science 2. following the third year clerkships, the students return to the same practice for four weeks to complete their learning in population-based medicine in community science 4).

year 3

service-based clerkships:

internal medicine (12 weeks), surgery (8 weeks), psychiatry (6 weeks), pediatrics (8 weeks), family medicine (8 weeks), and obstetrics and gynecology (6 weeks). concurrently, there are ongoing seminars in radiology and ethics.

year 4

..program includes a required experience in emergency medicine (4 weeks); a choice of "selectives" (6 weeks) which includes critical care, substance abuse, and surgical subspecialties; and 20 weeks of elective experiences. students may choose to take up to 12 weeks of electives at other medical schools. unscheduled time is provided for residency interviews. year iv includes the final community science experience in an outlining practice setting. the year iv program is intended to allow students to round out their clinical training experience while exploring different specialties as career options.

wow looks like everything has a clinical focus, what a concept...

Up Vote Up Vote ×
Specializes in Critical care, gerontology, hospice.

I have to make a couple of points in this discussion. First of all, NPs weren't "invented" to relieve the MD shortage, as one person mentioned. NPs were developed to extend the reach of the RN, in ways that nurses historically were able to do before MDs limited their practice. The fact that NPs *do* serve instead of MDs in many cases only proves that MDs weren't needed. The DNP is meant to put NPs on an equal basis with others in the health care field, such as PharmD's and Physical Therapists, who are making the clinical doctorate their degree requirement. The MD has always been a clinical doctorate but the way they lord it over people (including those with PhD's which is a higher degree) you'd think it was more than that. My Master's NP program was highly rigorous and a match for any clinical doctorate, and I have no intention of going back for more. But if I was starting the journey now I would do it, because it is the future, and you have to be ready for whatever happens. I'm going to retire in a couple of years, but if I weren't I'd be protecting my investment.

Up Vote Up Vote ×
I have to make a couple of points in this discussion. First of all, NPs weren't "invented" to relieve the MD shortage, as one person mentioned. NPs were developed to extend the reach of the RN, in ways that nurses historically were able to do before MDs limited their practice.
Didn't we expand from the noeonatal arena?
The fact that NPs *do* serve instead of MDs in many cases only proves that MDs weren't needed.
Hmmmm. Supplement? Replace?
The DNP is meant to put NPs on an equal basis with others in the health care field, such as PharmD's and Physical Therapists, who are making the clinical doctorate their degree requirement. The MD has always been a clinical doctorate but the way they lord it over people (including those with PhD's which is a higher degree) you'd think it was more than that.
Every state and probably every school will have a different DNP program which means no equal footing because each one will think theirs is better...
My Master's NP program was highly rigorous and a match for any clinical doctorate, and I have no intention of going back for more. But if I was starting the journey now I would do it, because it is the future, and you have to be ready for whatever happens. I'm going to retire in a couple of years, but if I weren't I'd be protecting my investment.

Even at my age, 45, I don't look at the DNP as protecting my investment or at least not the way its developed right now anyway.. I could be wrong maybe with this as a terminal line of education maybe they can focus on uniformity. Just my thoughts.

Up Vote Up Vote ×
Specializes in Critical care, gerontology, hospice.

Actually it was pediatrics. Google "Loretta Ford" for an accurate history of the NP profession. The point of the DNP is to elevate the NP as a profession, not individual schools or programs. There will always be competition between schools, that's human nature. But when NPs are talking to legislators they are seen as "less than" without an equivalent degree. That's what the pharmacists and physical therapists figured out, and changed their curriculum accordingly.

Up Vote Up Vote ×

(Late to the game, so I am catching up. Pardon me if I am covering old things....I may update my responses if I am too far off topic with where the thread is currently focused)

Why the difference in certification, unless they're training administrators??? The extra doctorate courses look like more nursing theory and research, healthcare administration and policy, and risk management. Not what I need in my personal practice to take care of my patients better. If I went for a doctorate, I'd want more courses in areas like advanced pathyphys, disease management and pharm. (Plus training in reading EKGs and x-rays, for crying out loud). All the DNP programs I've looked at do not appeal to me at all, and I've looked at quite a few.

If I seem frustrated, it's because I am. The DNP curriculum looks like it was designed by a group of ivory tower PhD's that are out of touch with the real needs of those of us in practice. Sorry for the rant.

Dana

Ironically Ivory Tower PhDs should be against the DNP, as the curriculum seem to be a piece-meal grouping of courses that offer little in regard to advanced clinical training and/or an area of expertise. One of the cornerstones of Ph.D. training is in research, statistics, and mastery in a particular area of knowledge. Based on the curriculum I have seen, the dnp programs seem to be an MPH crossed with an MBA with some Research-Lite training....hardly the rigors of a doctoral program. Even a clinically-based doctorate has a well-developed set of classes and clearly defined clinical training, from what I've read about the great variety of programs....there isn't much cohesiveness in the ultimate training goals of the various programs.

If the purpose of the degree is to teach management.....why not an MBA?

If the purpose of the degree is to be clinical....why not make it similar to the outline in Post #510?

If the purpose of the degree is to better utilize research....why not a Ph.D?

I am all for #2 because *THAT* seems like a great opportunity for training, though then it gets into, "is this practicing medicine or nursing?" which opens up another can of worms.

Fulton & Lyon (2005) wrote an article that addresses some of my concerns, and I think it is a pretty good read (http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/514545_1, free sign up for access).

Ultimately I think the DNP is going to hurt nursing because it not only is dividing nursing, but it also is drawing a lot of negativity to a really important asset to a treatment team. A Ph.D. in Nursing can practice in addition to teach, so I'm not sure why a DNP is really needed....other than to line the offering Universities' pockets. It reeks of scope creep and degree inflation. When a typical doctoral program is 100-120 credits, I have a hard time seeing 40-60 credits as acceptable.

Support Core 19

Translation and Synthesis of Evidence for Optimal Outcomes

Quantitative Research Methods

Epidemiology and Environmental Health

Legal and Ethical Issues

Clinical Genomics Advanced Seminar

Practice Management

Informatics

Clinical Core 11

Doctor of Nursing Practice I and II

Didactic

Clinical

Didactic and Clinical

Chronic Illness Management

Residency/Seminar 10

Total credits 40

This was pulled from Columbia University's DNP.

Up Vote Up Vote ×
PhD and other doctoral program aren't necessarily four years in length. I'm not sure of the history of the term nor of how institutions determine what courses of study result in a doctoral degree versus other degrees. In many fields, the PhD denotes a very specialized and focused course of study culminating with a long, detailed thesis on a very specific topic.

That is my experience too. I WISH I could do it in four years, currently I'm on pace for about 6.5 years.

Most PhD programs can be finished in as little as two years depending on the class load and teaching requirements. Most allow the candidate to take longer if necessary. However most programs now require the candidate to finish in a certain period of time. Seven years seems to be the most common time frame.

David Carpenter, PA-C

Huh?

Two year to get your proposal hashed out and MAAAAAAAAYBE started. Typically you have to have a pretty substantial amount of fleshing out of the literature (many programs handle this as a master's thesis and/or major paper), which is then augmented to a proposal which has to go through IRB if you are using human subjects, and THEN you start collecting data. Once your data is collected then you play with it, and THEN you start on the actual writing of your work.

Oh...and then there are your classes, TA'ing/Teaching, clinical hours, etc.

Up Vote Up Vote ×
Physicians have to justify their actions when things go south. If DNP's want the same privileges as physicians such as admitting and being in charge of the patient while they're in the hospital, then they also have to be able to justify every decision based on the phys, path, anatomy, pharm, etc just like physicians. Your physician colleagues won't give you a pass just because you're a DNP.

If anything, be thankful that you are being forced to talk through your rational, differential, and the like....because that will help you be a better provider at the end of the day.

Hello. I am a PNP. I am thinking about going for my DNP or pHd in nursing. Do you know what the actual difference is between these and whihc would be the best to achieve?

Thanks!

Dee

Apples and Oranges.

The Ph.D. in Nursing is grounded in nursing theory, which is then used in the application of research and analysis, with the end result being a a comprehensive work of research (dissertation) that represents your expertise and the is the culmination of your classes, research, study, etc.

The DNP is more of a cornucopia of classes that range from management to advanced nursing theories, etc. There may or may not include a research component....but don't expect the same level of research as the Ph.D., because that isn't the purpose of the DNP.

Up Vote Up Vote ×
+ Join the Discussion