Doctoral degree to become an NP???

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The American Association of Colleges of Nursing (AACN) is calling for the requirement of doctorate in nursing for advanced practice nurses, such as nurse practitioners, nurse midwives, clinical nurse specialists, and nurse anesthetists. This new degree will be called a Doctor of Nursing Practice and, if the AACN has its way, will become the entry level for advanced nursing practice.

AACN Position Statement on the Practice Doctorate in Nursing

Most PhD programs can be finished in as little as two years depending on the class load and teaching requirements. Most allow the candidate to take longer if necessary. However most programs now require the candidate to finish in a certain period of time. Seven years seems to be the most common time frame.

David Carpenter, PA-C

I don't know of any respected PhD programs in "nursing" that can be "finished" in 2 years, especially if they also have a teaching posiiton. I do agree 7 years is the standard time frame. In my day 50% of the PhD students in nursing ended up ABD. The classes are the "easier" part of the PhD. The disquistion is often at least a year process if not longer. Here is the difference between the PhD and the DNP, original research is expected from the PhD. Practice improvement is the expectation for the DNP.

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I don't know of any respected PhD programs in "nursing" that can be "finished" in 2 years, especially if they also have a teaching posiiton. I do agree 7 years is the standard time frame. In my day 50% of the PhD students in nursing ended up ABD. The classes are the "easier" part of the PhD. The disquistion is often at least a year process if not longer. Here is the difference between the PhD and the DNP, original research is expected from the PhD. Practice improvement is the expectation for the DNP.

Most nursing PhDs seem to be between 55 and 60 credits. Full time is 12 credits per semester 6 credits in the summer (most places some use as few as 9) this would equal 60 credits, and if you don't have teaching duties 15 credits isn't hard. The thing time wise that trips most people up is the dissertation. If you don't start you dissertation until your second year then you may not have time to get the research done, do the analysis and defend the dissertation within a year. On the other hand if you hit the program with a good idea of what you are doing the dissertation on then its very doable. Especially if you can front load the research. The reason that many PhDs in hard science take more than two years is either that they are entered from a bachelors so they usually get a masters along the way or the adviser has them doing other research before starting on their research.

David Carpenter, PA-C

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Specializes in ED, Cardiac-step down, tele, med surg.
Most nursing PhDs seem to be between 55 and 60 credits. Full time is 12 credits per semester 6 credits in the summer (most places some use as few as 9) this would equal 60 credits, and if you don't have teaching duties 15 credits isn't hard. The thing time wise that trips most people up is the dissertation. If you don't start you dissertation until your second year then you may not have time to get the research done, do the analysis and defend the dissertation within a year. On the other hand if you hit the program with a good idea of what you are doing the dissertation on then its very doable. Especially if you can front load the research. The reason that many PhDs in hard science take more than two years is either that they are entered from a bachelors so they usually get a masters along the way or the adviser has them doing other research before starting on their research.

David Carpenter, PA-C

Some degrees are inherently more involved than others because, like biochemistry or genetics for example. Anyone who finishes a doctoral degree in one of those in less than 4 years is an anomaly. The material is also more intricate and detailed.

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Okay... hopefully the answer to my question isn't already woven into the 49 pages of this thread, and if it is i'll never know...

So, do all dnp programs result in NP certification? Suppose a student is going straight from a BSN to DNP, or a non-NP MSN student is going on for their DNP... will the program render them eligible to sit for the NP exam?

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Okay... hopefully the answer to my question isn't already woven into the 49 pages of this thread, and if it is i'll never know...

So, do all DNP programs result in NP certification? Suppose a student is going straight from a BSN to DNP, or a non-NP MSN student is going on for their DNP... will the program render them eligible to sit for the NP exam?

Yes...the DNP is for Nurse Practitioners...the PhD is theory, but does not prepare you to sit for an NP exam.

All of the dnp programs I have seen, are NP based.

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Perhaps "die on my feet" is a bad analogy, but it nurses are expected to spend their career "on their knees" to physicians then I think I chose the wrong profession to go into. For example, pharmacists are no expected to bow to physicians, but are thought of as professional on an equal footing, with a slightly different knowledge base. My interpretation of what you are saying is that nurses are again the "handmaiden," and had better bow and scrape for every scrap they can get from the physician community. If this is true, I feel I have been mislead by the nursing profession to think that nursing was an equally important career to other professionals. There are many people with the background to go into medicine or another profession, but the nursing profession has been recruiting the same people into nursing with a myth of equality. Wow, what a big disappointment. I think I should go back to my undergraduate university and take down all of the posters that advertises nursing as a respected profession and take them down, or let schools know that nurses spend their careers "on their knees" to physicians. Yuk, not something I went to school for. Thanks for you comments, I appreciate your honesty

My comment about living "on (one's) knees" was purely, strictly a reference to your quotation about dying on your feet vs. living on your knees. Anyone who knows me personally can tell you I'm the furthest thing possible from a "physician's handmaiden," or advocating for that role for nursing. Exactly the opposite. All I was saying was that many of us are happy to be midlevel providers and enjoy practicing as such, and feel no need to challenge and provoke the medical community and risk getting our practices restricted as a result. I have always enjoyed positive, professional, collegial relationships with physicians and intend to continue doing so. Smart physicians have a lot of respect for what nurses have to offer -- which is very different from, but equally necessary to, what physicians have to offer. We (physicians and nurses) exist in a symbiotic relationship of sorts -- each group needs the other to "survive." Direct, forced competition benefits neither group.

I also have a great deal of respect for the significant differences between medical education and nursing education. You insist you want to be taken seriously as an "equal" of physicians, yet, you also object to being subjected to the kind of rigorous, detailed questioning that is the daily bread of medical education. Nursing is not a quick 'n easy, "back door" route into practicing medicine, and I think it is more insulting and demeaning to nursing than to medicine to try to use it as such. If I felt a need to consider myself the "equal" of a physician, I would go to medical school, get licensed, and complete a lengthy residency. Others who are seeking that level of autonomous practice, income, and prestige are welcome to do the same.

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Specializes in ED, Cardiac-step down, tele, med surg.
My comment about living "on (one's) knees" was purely, strictly a reference to your quotation about dying on your feet vs. living on your knees. Anyone who knows me personally can tell you I'm the furthest thing possible from a "physician's handmaiden," or advocating for that role for nursing. Exactly the opposite. All I was saying was that many of us are happy to be midlevel providers and enjoy practicing as such, and feel no need to challenge and provoke the medical community and risk getting our practices restricted as a result. I have always enjoyed positive, professional, collegial relationships with physicians and intend to continue doing so. Smart physicians have a lot of respect for what nurses have to offer -- which is very different from, but equally necessary to, what physicians have to offer. We (physicians and nurses) exist in a symbiotic relationship of sorts -- each group needs the other to "survive." Direct, forced competition benefits neither group.

I also have a great deal of respect for the significant differences between medical education and nursing education. You insist you want to be taken seriously as an "equal" of physicians, yet, you also object to being subjected to the kind of rigorous, detailed questioning that is the daily bread of medical education. Nursing is not a quick 'n easy, "back door" route into practicing medicine, and I think it is more insulting and demeaning to nursing than to medicine to try to use it as such. If I felt a need to consider myself the "equal" of a physician, I would go to medical school, get licensed, and complete a lengthy residency. Others who are seeking that level of autonomous practice, income, and prestige are welcome to do the same.

You should read what certain med students and who ever else may post on the student doctor network about nursing and nurses. I think it actually makes the medical profession look bad. It's pretty crude and mean. I may post the link later when I have time. As far as the rigorous interrogation, I felt this particular doc was just inept at socratic questioning, because the student is supposed to learn from the session, not just feel intimidated. That suits no purpose. There should be a purpose right? I also consider every human being an equal regardless of education and training. It's not too much to ask to be treated as an equal and with respect. With autonomy, I think that an NP should be able to diagnose and treat certain illness within their knowledge base autonomously, with the help of physicians if need be. A midlevel provider should be able to operate independently within their knowledge base. And I think that the medical profession should be challenged to evolve. I know you don't think so, but that's okay. I think evolution is a good thing. Nursing and medicine need to know each other better. Nursing should not just bow down to medicine. I encourage you to check out student doctor network. If that's truly how physicians feel about nursing, then we've got some work to do to fix that attitude. It's bad for patients. Thanks again for your thoughts, time, and input,

j

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You should read what certain med students and who ever else may post on the student doctor network about nursing and nurses. I think it actually makes the medical profession look bad. It's pretty crude and mean. I may post the link later when I have time. As far as the rigorous interrogation, I felt this particular doc was just inept at socratic questioning, because the student is supposed to learn from the session, not just feel intimidated. That suits no purpose. There should be a purpose right? I also consider every human being an equal regardless of education and training. It's not too much to ask to be treated as an equal and with respect. With autonomy, I think that an NP should be able to diagnose and treat certain illness within their knowledge base autonomously, with the help of physicians if need be. A midlevel provider should be able to operate independently within their knowledge base. And I think that the medical profession should be challenged to evolve. I know you don't think so, but that's okay. I think evolution is a good thing. Nursing and medicine need to know each other better. Nursing should not just bow down to medicine. I encourage you to check out student doctor network. If that's truly how physicians feel about nursing, then we've got some work to do to fix that attitude. It's bad for patients. Thanks again for your thoughts, time, and input,

j

I am well aware of SDN, and choose not to waste my time on it. The views posted there are certainly not representative of all physicians' attitudes and opinions. If you've been sending much time there, it's no wonder you're all whipped about nurses not getting treated with respect.

Over my decades in nursing, both as a generalist and as a CNS, I've enjoyed courteous, respectful, professional, collegial relationships with physicians, and I've been able to practice within the scope of my practice and education without any problems. I'm not interested in getting lectured and condescended to by someone who isn't even in the field yet. Best wishes for your studies and your future (although I doubt, from reading your posts thus far, that you'll ever be satisfied or comfortable in nursing).

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Snip As far as the rigorous interrogation, I felt this particular doc was just inept at socratic questioning, because the student is supposed to learn from the session, not just feel intimidated. That suits no purpose. There should be a purpose right? I also consider every human being an equal regardless of education and training. It's not too much to ask to be treated as an equal and with respect. With autonomy, I think that an NP should be able to diagnose and treat certain illness within their knowledge base autonomously, with the help of physicians if need be. A midlevel provider should be able to operate independently within their knowledge base. And I think that the medical profession should be challenged to evolve. I know you don't think so, but that's okay. I think evolution is a good thing. Nursing and medicine need to know each other better. Nursing should not just bow down to medicine. I encourage you to check out student doctor network. If that's truly how physicians feel about nursing, then we've got some work to do to fix that attitude. It's bad for patients. Thanks again for your thoughts, time, and input,

j

What you were describing is called pimping. Even over on SDN there was a long thread on its worth. Most physicians do this because that is the way that they are trained. Most instructors (PA, NP, MD) do this because its a reasonable way to find out the students level of knowledge and identify gaps. Sometimes the student will demonstrate where they are by their questions, but it rare.

Unfortunately since physicians (and other providers) rarely have any formal study in educational theory many use it in the manner that its used in medical school, where it has evolved to the point of ritual hazing.

There are some providers that are inept instructors there are some providers that are very good teachers. In our program we had feed back on the instructors and the ones that had poor ratings were not used again (unless it was OB). You learn something in every environment. Sometimes what you learn is how not to act with other human beings.

David Carpenter, PA-C

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Specializes in ED, Cardiac-step down, tele, med surg.
I am well aware of SDN, and choose not to waste my time on it. The views posted there are certainly not representative of all physicians' attitudes and opinions. If you've been sending much time there, it's no wonder you're all whipped about nurses not getting treated with respect.

Over my decades in nursing, both as a generalist and as a CNS, I've enjoyed courteous, respectful, professional, collegial relationships with physicians, and I've been able to practice within the scope of my practice and education without any problems. I'm not interested in getting lectured and condescended to by someone who isn't even in the field yet. Best wishes for your studies and your future (although I doubt, from reading your posts thus far, that you'll ever be satisfied or comfortable in nursing).

Thanks for the info, and I don't think my posts were condescending, or not meant to be. I'm an opinionated person and that will not change. My opinions are slightly different than yours, and that's okay. I don't know enough about nursing to know if it's for me or not. I still think it is often times good to challenge the status quo.

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Hi,

I'm thinking about many options: Accelerated MSN/BSN, Traditional BSN, etc. My ultimate goal is to become a FNP. Do you know if you really have to wait a year after you become an RN to apply for the MSN/FNP program? I am 46 years old, and I would like to graduate with my MSN/FNP one day.

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Rush University offers a DNP program.

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