Do you think ADN programs will really be phased out?

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Like they have up in Canada? There's no doubt that more and more places with be requiring bachelors in Nursing but do you really think Associate nursing degrees will become obsolete altogether?

I think this would be a bad idea because I think there are many great future nursing out there who either don't have the money to attend a 4 year university or due to life issues cant commit to a four year program. what do you think?

Specializes in Critical Care.
Could you point me to a few of those studies.

I'm referring to the Aiken and other UPenn and similar studies. There are some good criticisms of these studies but I think it's fair to say that they at least suggest improved outcomes, even though they don't clearly prove the correlation. It is important to not that it's not likely these studies accurately reflect the potential outcomes of patients cared for by today's ADN vs BSN grads, since these studies were looking at nurses practicing primarily around the year 2000, so what they looked at was the ADN programs they attended which likely went all the way back to the 60's. Since these studies came out, ADN programs have changed significantly so it's very unlikely that these studies can be used to measure the quality of today's ADN programs.

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Imagine eliminating ADN programs will be in line right behind eliminating LPN programs. Since it has been at least 60 years since the latter was recommended, I won't be holding my breath.

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There is another (better) option that you are ignoring. Those ADN programs that keep expanding their curricula should just own up to the fact that they are teaching BSN level material and convert their programs to BSN programs. They should meet the remaining standards for BSN programs and award BSN degrees -- rather than expand their ADN course content, charge additional money for those expanded programs, but then award the lower-ranked academic degree.

That's one of the things that really bothers me about this mess. An Associate's Degree is "supposed" to take 4 semesters of full time study -- which is the national standard for all disciplines. But some ADN programs are adding so much to their requirements that students end up taking far longer from start to finish. Those are the people who should be most angry about this -- the ADN grads who went to those expanded programs that require them to do BSN level work, but don't get the BSN level course credits! They are being ripped off by their schools in multiple ways -- first by not getting the full academic credit they deserve for their educations -- then for paying extra money for the extra coursework that is not required for ADN level degrees -- and finally by graduating with a degree (credential) that is at the bottom of the academic hierarchy and that will limit their career options.

If those ADN grads are truly getting an education equal to a BSN -- they should be furious at their schools for ripping them off by not awarding them the degree they have earned. Put the blame where it really belongs, not on the people wanting well-educated nurses -- but on the schools who sell lesser degrees while stating that their graduates are "just as well-educated."

Back in the day standard CUNY (City University of New York) ADN nursing programs ran two and one half years. One semester of pre-nursing classes, and two years of nursing upon being formally admitted. Bing, Bam, Boom you were done and taking the boards in about three years from start to finish.

Now of course to meet ever the ever increasing mandates from facilities and so forth as to what a new grad should know ADN programs have had to beef up. Sadly for students what should be a two year degree is now morphing into three (just like many diploma programs of old), which is sad because as you say these students are in school for three or more years just to obtain a two year degree.

When you consider class scheduling problems, possible failure and thus needing to repeat a course and so forth you have ADN students in school for nearly four years. They could have simply gone the BSN route and be done.

However being as all this may it overlooks the still major difference between four year and two year degrees. It is not always about just nursing but the host of core and other academic classes unrelated to nursing but still required to obtain a BofS regardless of major. Higher math, sciences, and other classes are not always up everyone's street so given an option to get to the same point (to qualify for the boards) if there is another way some will take that instead.

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However, depending on the market, there are BSNs in LTC, home health, and clinics as well...there's really no degree difference at this point, at least in my market. :no:

Brings to mind a LTC facility where I once worked, new BSN grad on my shift and the experienced LVN was in charge by word of the DON. This was more than 15 years ago.

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Imagine eliminating ADN programs will be in line right behind eliminating LPN programs. Since it has been at least 60 years since the latter was recommended, I won't be holding my breath.

Oh I don't know.

LPNs have their own scope of practice and while many areas have phased them out of acute care facilities there is still work out there for practical nurses.

ADN and BSN nurses OTOH are competing in the same job market at least when it comes to be hired on floors, units, etc... Again if within a geographic area a major or all facilities strongly prefer or only hire RNs with BSN degrees what happens then?

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In my area out of work RNs of any flavor get jobs before out of work LVNs. They especially love it when those out of work RNs are willing to work for LVN pay.

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Specializes in Pediatrics, Emergency, Trauma.
Back in the day standard CUNY (City University of New York) ADN nursing programs ran two and one half years. One semester of pre-nursing classes, and two years of nursing upon being formally admitted. Bing, Bam, Boom you were done and taking the boards in about three years from start to finish.

Now of course to meet ever the ever increasing mandates from facilities and so forth as to what a new grad should know ADN programs have had to beef up. Sadly for students what should be a two year degree is now morphing into three (just like many diploma programs of old), which is sad because as you say these students are in school for three or more years just to obtain a two year degree.

When you consider class scheduling problems, possible failure and thus needing to repeat a course and so forth you have ADN students in school for nearly four years. They could have simply gone the BSN route and be done.

However being as all this may it overlooks the still major difference between four year and two year degrees. It is not always about just nursing but the host of core and other academic classes unrelated to nursing but still required to obtain a BofS regardless of major. Higher math, sciences, and other classes are not always up everyone's street so given an option to get to the same point (to qualify for the boards) if there is another way some will take that instead.

This is a very good point. :yes:

This is what made me turn my back in getting my ADN when I didn't succeed the first time; I could've went back, but when they decided to "conveniently" tell me and my cohort that the ENTIRE program was FOUR years, I felt pretty disenchanted in terms of ending up with a two year degree; not to mention that I was a model student, but still had difficulties in test taking; it wasn't until I was in a PN diploma program that they worked in assisting in my test anxiety.

Even though I didn't go for an ADN, the silver lining was I did obtain an associates degree which helped we cut down time in a BSN program and was able to do nursing courses, and only had three classes that I needed to take, and was able to incorporate as online classes while I took my BSN classes on campus.

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Specializes in Critical Care, ED, Cath lab, CTPAC,Trauma.
I'm referring to the Aiken and other UPenn and similar studies. There are some good criticisms of these studies but I think it's fair to say that they at least suggest improved outcomes, even though they don't clearly prove the correlation. It is important to not that it's not likely these studies accurately reflect the potential outcomes of patients cared for by today's ADN vs BSN grads, since these studies were looking at nurses practicing primarily around the year 2000, so what they looked at was the ADN programs they attended which likely went all the way back to the 60's. Since these studies came out, ADN programs have changed significantly so it's very unlikely that these studies can be used to measure the quality of today's ADN programs.
I went to a high quality ASN program in the late seventies...there was nothing sub par in any of the ASN grads I worked with either.

The studies are flawed with Aiken and the ANA having a vested interest in the desired outcome. I am frustrated how they measure BSN improved outcomes when the BSN has been in the minority for many years.

The BSN is the future. I just have a problem with blanket statements about sub par programs when in fact that isn't facutal nor proven.

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I went to a high quality ASN program in the late seventies...there was nothing sub par in any of the ASN grads I worked with either.

The studies are flawed with Aiken and the ANA having a vested interest in the desired outcome. I am frustrated how they measure BSN improved outcomes when the BSN has been in the minority for many years.

The BSN is the future. I just have a problem with blanket statements about sub par programs when in fact that isn't facutal nor proven.

There was nothing sub par about the community college ADN program I attended around 20 years ago either. The program had a reputation for turning out very good nurses, who were ready to work in acute care without prolonged orientation. Then, as now, the graduates were held in high regard and sought after by local/area health care businesses. The program has doubled it's intake of students in recent years and it's graduates are working at all levels of health care and in all types of facilities.

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Specializes in Adult Internal Medicine.

The studies are flawed with Aiken and the ANA having a vested interest in the desired outcome.

The BSN is the future. I just have a problem with blanket statements about sub par programs when in fact that isn't facutal nor proven.

The common rebuttal in this discussion is that the studies are flaws because the authors have a vested interested in the outcomes. I have yet to see anyone demonstrate how this interest 1. Directly benefits the authors, 2. Falsifies the data, 3. Is able to produce the same outcomes across many health systems internationally where there is no vested interest.

In over two decades not a single study has been published that refutes the extant literature, even by those with vested interest in the opposite outcome. To me, this is the most telling part of the debate.

Moreover, clinical trails required by the FDA are funded by the pharma company promoting the product yet medicine/nursing considers these the gold standards in science.

Many nurses forget that without Aiken, nurses would be in a 1/50 ratio with patients. Her studies have set the standards for staffing levels in tertiary care.

And for the record, there are just as many subpar BSN programs out there as ADN programs. These fly-by-night diploma mill online schools offering pay-to-play RN-BSN degrees are a complete sham.

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Specializes in Nursing Professional Development.

But why not give those 2nd degree folks a BSN in the same time (and at the same cost) as the ADN program? It wouldn't be significantly harder ... and they would end up with the higher degree and more career opportunities? That's what I am suggesting. The BSN may have cost $35K in your state at that time -- but that does not HAVE to remain true. The 2nd degree BSN doesn't have to cost that much, and wouldn't cost that much if it were offered by the same schools now offering ADN's taking 2 or 3 years.

Those people didn't mind getting an ADN back then ... but maybe some of them mind now, or will mind in the future if/when they want promotions or they want to go to grad school and find that they need to take extra classes to meet the current/future requirements. When they feel the limits of the opportunities available to them with only the ADN, some of those people may wish they had gone to a 15-18 month 2nd degee BSN program rather than to an ADN program.

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Specializes in Emergency Department.
But why not give those 2nd degree folks a BSN in the same time (and at the same cost) as the ADN program? It wouldn't be significantly harder ... and they would end up with the higher degree and more career opportunities? That's what I am suggesting. The BSN may have cost $35K in your state at that time -- but that does not HAVE to remain true. The 2nd degree BSN doesn't have to cost that much, and wouldn't cost that much if it were offered by the same schools now offering ADN's taking 2 or 3 years.

Those people didn't mind getting an ADN back then ... but maybe some of them mind now, or will mind in the future if/when they want promotions or they want to go to grad school and find that they need to take extra classes to meet the current/future requirements. When they feel the limits of the opportunities available to them with only the ADN, some of those people may wish they had gone to a 15-18 month 2nd degee BSN program rather than to an ADN program.

I'm an RN that was basically forced to go down the ADN route because I already have a Bachelors degree (it's in an allied healthcare field) and at the time I was applying to RN schools, the private programs were way too expensive and the University was closed entirely to 2nd Bachelors students and their ELM wasn't up and running at the time. In essence, I was "stuck" with going to an ADN program. The difference between doing the University's BSN program vs the ADN program? One semester, and I probably wouldn't have been a full-time student for most of the program because I already have my UDGE done and would have only needed the program content.

My program has looked at what they'd need to add to be able to award a BSN, provided they could. The additional coursework would only add a single semester to their current program and that coursework would consist of mostly UDGE. It would not be a significant problem once they're allowed to award specific Bachelors degrees.

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