I am not sure if it is true or not, but I heard that RNs get a little extra pay when they work on a day where nursing students are present. If the charge RN assigned a student to an RN, then they get the extra pay.
I am talking about college nursing students not training a new employee.
It just came on top of my head because I have been assigned to lousy RNs during my clinical rotations and it feels like they should be more engaged with students
I did so, and the pts nurse quickly approached me in the delivery room and asked me who told me I could be in there. I told her my CI had said to go with the team, and she told me the pt had requested no students. I left the room with professional grace, but I'm a little embarrassed that I didn't keep that grace after leaving.
I have to say, I was displeased. The pts that refuse to allow a student to observe this beautiful miracle, instead thinking that "oh, that pervert, he just wants to see my naughty bits!" doesn't think that about the male MD, and the hypocrisy was maddening, especially considering that if I chose to go into OB nursing, which I was considering, she would da*n sure expect me to know what I was doing, and might not have the choice of someone else whose parts look just like hers, only less pregnant.
Then I chilled out and thought about the fact that it IS her right to decide who sees, and it wasn't personal against any of the male students. It was shortsighted and narrow-minded, but pts have the right to be both of those things. I'm still displeased, and this is part of the reason I have now abandoned the thought of going into OB. That kind of prejudice is not the uphill battle I want to fight my whole career. Your point about honoring that trust you've built with a pt is the priority, though, and that's a point students, myself included, need to understand.
I think it's good that you stopped and reflected further on this incident and came to the conclusion that at the end of the day, it's the patient's right to determine who shares in her experience.
However, I would like to disagree that the patient doing so shows any hint of her being "short sighted" and "narrow minded." This is a huge event in a patient's life, and asking to limit the number of people in the room may or may not have anything to do at all with the fact that you were male. In fact, you specifically state that the patient asked that there be "no students" in the room, not "no male students." I question you labeling this behavior as "hypocrisy." The patient may just have not wanted to have a whole crowd of people in the room and, while possibly having chosen a male MD, that didn't mean she should extend that permission to nursing students in any show of "fairness." It may have had ZERO to do with any kind of thinking that male nursing students are "perverts" who wanted to view her "naughty bits." That is some serious projection on your part. Yes, some women are modest, but to be honest, they probably are not crazy about anyone being up close and personal in those moments, but they know that's not realistic. They can, however, attempt to preserve some semblance of their privacy by limiting those present to people who are absolutely necessary to ensuring a safe birth.
I had my children before I became a nurse and I requested no students as well. It had nothing to do with student gender or any sense that someone wishing to observe was a pervert. It had everything to do with privacy and limiting this miracle experience to the absolute minimum number of people required to get the job done in order to preserve that intimacy that I desired to be present for myself and my husband on this most precious of days. In fact, IIRC, I think one of my RNs was a male during my second birth, and it didn't occur to me to care about that, even though I'd requested no students.
As a student, I was always grateful when a patient allowed me to be present or even involved in their care. But I totally understood when that permission was not granted.
I want to commend you on being able to stop and re-examine a situation with a different lens, but try not to project emotions or motives or your own biases onto the patient. At the end of the day, you are not in their head, not walking in their shoes, and therefore are not in the position to make value judgments on the decisions they make about their care.
Good luck. It sounds like you have the makings of a good nurse.
1. Do you think that patients get something extra for the privilege of having you learn on them?
2. Do you know that patients have the right, unlike floor nurses, to say that they don't want any students near them?
3. Do you feel offended and/or bullied when patients don't want you observing or performing a procedure or task, thereby depriving you of the clinical experience that you feel they should be glad to provide for you?
In my experience as a RN, I've observed that when patients deny permission for nursing students to be involved in their care, it's less about their gender and more about their perception that the student doesn't have the required competence level. That's probably why we just didn't have many students in our ICUs. Patients and their families weren't shy about asking about the experience level of the nurses either. As critical as many of these patients are, families don't want someone they view as lacking in skill or experience taking care of the patient. I think all of the technology present contributes to that, even though the RNs would of course not send a student in to do something tricky without being present. I could see the same thing happening in a pedi unit or L & D, where the stakes are so high and the families are vigilant about advocating for the patient.
2. Do you know that patients have the right, unlike floor nurses, to say that they don't want any students near them?
3. Do you feel offended and/or bullied when patients don't want you observing or performing a procedure or task, thereby depriving you of the clinical experience that you feel they should be glad to provide for you?
Apparently some do...even go so far as to say a laboring woman who doesn't want non-essential male personnel is...what were the words... narrow minded and ignorant?
That is a very judgmental thing to say, btw. Students and practicing RNs need to leave that attitude at the door.
Apparently some do...even go so far as to say a laboring woman who doesn't want non-essential male personnel is...what were the words... narrow minded and ignorant?
That is a very judgmental thing to say, btw. Students and practicing RNs need to leave that attitude at the door.
I agree with you. The fact that the student in question did go back and kind of re-look at the situation and his reaction gave me hope that he can engage in some further introspection about his take on the whole thing.
Maybe if he ever experiences the situation from the aspect of patient, some of this will look different to him.
I wonder if this is current practice. Back in the day, nurses precepting new grads in the internship programs were most certainly compensated for that. And they should be!
I agree with you. The fact that the student in question did go back and kind of re-look at the situation and his reaction gave me hope that he can engage in some further introspection about his take on the whole thing.
Maybe if he ever experiences the situation from the aspect of patient, some of this will look different to him.
True, he does deserve credit for that. I have seen a couple other guys come on here all butt hurt and stay butt hurt despite reminders that it's not about them...
I'm not saying you're wrong about that, but just wanted to point out that, in my experience, nurses don't bother to complain about students (unless someone really did something dangerous) because plenty of people have in the past and discovered that neither the school personnel nor our superiors really care what we think. Everyone else involved in the process wants to maintain the status quo and keep churning the students through. I think that phenomenon contributes to the grumpiness so many of us have about having students.
A fair point. I'm pretty sure if someone had a complaint about any of us, that person would be seeking a new program, or at least reapplying to this one next term, because they would not be completing that semester.
I think it's good that you stopped and reflected further on this incident and came to the conclusion that at the end of the day, it's the patient's right to determine who shares in her experience.
However, I would like to disagree that the patient doing so shows any hint of her being "short sighted" and "narrow minded." This is a huge event in a patient's life, and asking to limit the number of people in the room may or may not have anything to do at all with the fact that you were male. In fact, you specifically state that the patient asked that there be "no students" in the room, not "no male students." I question you labeling this behavior as "hypocrisy." The patient may just have not wanted to have a whole crowd of people in the room and, while possibly having chosen a male MD, that didn't mean she should extend that permission to nursing students in any show of "fairness." It may have had ZERO to do with any kind of thinking that male nursing students are "perverts" who wanted to view her "naughty bits." That is some serious projection on your part. Yes, some women are modest, but to be honest, they probably are not crazy about anyone being up close and personal in those moments, but they know that's not realistic. They can, however, attempt to preserve some semblance of their privacy by limiting those present to people who are absolutely necessary to ensuring a safe birth.
I had my children before I became a nurse and I requested no students as well. It had nothing to do with student gender or any sense that someone wishing to observe was a pervert. It had everything to do with privacy and limiting this miracle experience to the absolute minimum number of people required to get the job done in order to preserve that intimacy that I desired to be present for myself and my husband on this most precious of days. In fact, IIRC, I think one of my RNs was a male during my second birth, and it didn't occur to me to care about that, even though I'd requested no students.
As a student, I was always grateful when a patient allowed me to be present or even involved in their care. But I totally understood when that permission was not granted.
I want to commend you on being able to stop and re-examine a situation with a different lens, but try not to project emotions or motives or your own biases onto the patient. At the end of the day, you are not in their head, not walking in their shoes, and therefore are not in the position to make value judgments on the decisions they make about their care.
Good luck. It sounds like you have the makings of a good nurse.
Apparently some do...even go so far as to say a laboring woman who doesn't want non-essential male personnel is...what were the words... narrow minded and ignorant?
That is a very judgmental thing to say, btw. Students and practicing RNs need to leave that attitude at the door.
*shortsighted, not ignorant. My mistake.
My comments about narrow-mindedness and short-sightedness were not attitude, though I see why they were taken by you (all) as such. I meant that when a caregiver at any level is no longer a student, has passed boards and is working as the primary caregiver, especially as a nurse, their competency is expected at at least the most basic of levels. That is to say, when I'm your nurse, if you're delivering your baby, you have every right to expect that I know what I'm doing, especially if the delivery is precipitous/emergent, as in "doc's on the way, but not here yet." It is shortsighted to refuse to allow students the opportunity to learn and narrow-minded to expect that they will do so on "someone else". Manikins only go so far; there is no substitute for the reality of a mom with a baby exiting her body and entering the world.
In no way did I mean that as derogatory to the pt, but frustration; as it happens, I *have* delivered a baby before, but some of my classmates (of both genders) were also prevented from having this learning experience in clinical, and they understand what they missed, but only in the most superficial of ways...kinda like reading sheet music as compared to hearing the orchestra play. I respect her position as the pt, and likewise, any cultural boundaries that may be (but to my knowledge in this case, were not) present. The bottom line is that the pt does have that right. I don't have to like her decision, I just have to honor it and defend it if needed. It's the difference between personal and professional perspectives
Speaking of, I appreciate all of your multiple perspectives, and Horseshoe, thank you for the compliments and the advice. I hope to live up to the former and learn from the latter.
I am not sure if it is true or not, but I heard that RNs get a little extra pay when they work on a day where nursing students are present. If the charge RN assigned a student to an RN, then they get the extra pay.
I am talking about college nursing students not training a new employee.
It just came on top of my head because I have been assigned to lousy RNs during my clinical rotations and it feels like they should be more engaged with students
So.. what I hear you saying is ...If on the rare occasion I might get an additional 50 cents an hour to train you, if I did not do it with a smile and live up to your expectations...I should not get that 50 cents?
Apparently some do...even go so far as to say a laboring woman who doesn't want non-essential male personnel is...what were the words... narrow minded and ignorant?
That is a very judgmental thing to say, btw. Students and practicing RNs need to leave that attitude at the door.
I agree with you. The fact that the student in question did go back and kind of re-look at the situation and his reaction gave me hope that he can engage in some further introspection about his take on the whole thing.
Maybe if he ever experiences the situation from the aspect of patient, some of this will look different to him.
True, he does deserve credit for that. I have seen a couple other guys come on here all butt hurt and stay butt hurt despite reminders that it's not about them...
Ouch.
And a deserved ouch at that. Not from your posts, but from realizing my own hypocrisy... of sorts. I went back and looked at the post where I was talking about the mom who refused students... then I went and looked at post #160, also mine.
I gave the advice to those coming through after me to forget getting checked off and instead focus on the pt: That's who we're there for, not ourselves. Pardon me while I wipe the egg off my face that I just put there.
Admittedly, the OB/Peds experience I had helped shape part of that advice, but this line of posts shows me I still have to chew on this one for a bit before I get sick of it, spit it out and leave it behind me.
A good "sounding board" is good not because it echoes what you do, but because it lets you hear what something really sounds like. Thank you for being a good (and reasonably gentle) sounding board for me, both of you. Likes are inbound.
...If on the rare occasion I might get an additional 50 cents an hour to train you, if I did not do it with a smile and live up to your expectations...I should not get that 50 cents?
Horseshoe, BSN, RN
5,879 Posts
I think it's good that you stopped and reflected further on this incident and came to the conclusion that at the end of the day, it's the patient's right to determine who shares in her experience.
However, I would like to disagree that the patient doing so shows any hint of her being "short sighted" and "narrow minded." This is a huge event in a patient's life, and asking to limit the number of people in the room may or may not have anything to do at all with the fact that you were male. In fact, you specifically state that the patient asked that there be "no students" in the room, not "no male students." I question you labeling this behavior as "hypocrisy." The patient may just have not wanted to have a whole crowd of people in the room and, while possibly having chosen a male MD, that didn't mean she should extend that permission to nursing students in any show of "fairness." It may have had ZERO to do with any kind of thinking that male nursing students are "perverts" who wanted to view her "naughty bits." That is some serious projection on your part. Yes, some women are modest, but to be honest, they probably are not crazy about anyone being up close and personal in those moments, but they know that's not realistic. They can, however, attempt to preserve some semblance of their privacy by limiting those present to people who are absolutely necessary to ensuring a safe birth.
I had my children before I became a nurse and I requested no students as well. It had nothing to do with student gender or any sense that someone wishing to observe was a pervert. It had everything to do with privacy and limiting this miracle experience to the absolute minimum number of people required to get the job done in order to preserve that intimacy that I desired to be present for myself and my husband on this most precious of days. In fact, IIRC, I think one of my RNs was a male during my second birth, and it didn't occur to me to care about that, even though I'd requested no students.
As a student, I was always grateful when a patient allowed me to be present or even involved in their care. But I totally understood when that permission was not granted.
I want to commend you on being able to stop and re-examine a situation with a different lens, but try not to project emotions or motives or your own biases onto the patient. At the end of the day, you are not in their head, not walking in their shoes, and therefore are not in the position to make value judgments on the decisions they make about their care.
Good luck. It sounds like you have the makings of a good nurse.