Bill E Rubin

Interesting that you both cite the same word. I don't know about NY or MA, but where I live, EMT-P are licensed (as opposed to certified) as well. I would wonder if the medics there would be included if that was the case in those states. I also get asked often if, given XYZ symptoms and signs, is (whatever dx) possible. My answer: "Anytime you ask someone in medicine if something is possible, the answer will be, 'yes, it's possible.' That doesn't say anything about it being likely." Like you, Jen-Elizabeth, I'll give only very basic advice, always including, "Someone with a bigger degree on the wall than mine will have to answer that for you. I suggest your doctor, because they know you and your history better than I do." Thanks for your replies! Bill

I don't know how much this will help, but I just got my NCLEX results yesterday, a little over 3 months after my 50th birthday. I've worked in EMS since I was 20, so a few months shy of 30 years. Simply put, I ain't gonna be able to jump out of ambulances forever (not that nursing is going to be a cake walk, by any means!) Can it be done, yes. Can it be done for the same money, probably not, though you might look at factory health clinic jobs. The factories tend to pay well, at least around where I am, and your acute patient needs would probably be fewer and farther between than in most other settings. Too, if they're that bad, you call 911 and they go to the ER after the short time you have them. Again, I don't know if this will help, but it can't hurt to have the suggestion. Good luck! Bill

Many moons ago, when I was but a young college student with two cards(Red Cross 1st Aid and Red Cross CPR) in my wallet, the ink barely dry on them, I worked as a first aid team member at the local concerts and sports games. In those rooms, we had numerous supplies, among them the industrial-size bottles of Tylenol, ibuprofen, aspirin, etc., to include antinausea and other OTCs also. We were told that if someone came in requesting "something for a headache", or similar, we were to put the box with all of these in it on the desk in between them and us. That is, we were allowed to make various items available, but we were not permitted to advise which they should take, nor the quantity that was allowed. We were allowed to tell them to "read the bottle" (or to read it to them) if asked that. Obviously, our training was not that of a certified or licensed professional, but the rationale of not dispensing medication was the basis. I'm not sure if that was based on an attorney's advice or just something someone thought was a good idea. That, however, was in a so-called healthcare setting, and for strangers, with whom we had not even a passing acquaintence, let alone an assessment, etc. They came in with a complaint and a request for some quasi-specific remedy, and we were allowed to make what we had available. The very concept that as nurses we could not, if we chose to do so, do similarly for a coworker, friend, or even a visitor w/r/t OTCs is ludicrous at best, and ridiculous, that is, worthy of ridicule, is the mildest term I can conceive for a prohibition on medicating my own child. As a student, I would not tell that instructor either to get bent or to pound sand, but I can guarantee that s/he would never make a statement in class that I would believe without independent verification, ever again. SMH with facepalm Bill

I asked a question several pages back, and I've not seen it answered yet. Admittedly, I haven't been on here in the last several days, however, so I might have missed it. The question was, What is it about the arbitrary line that someone drew on a paper map somewhere defining "hospital property" that makes the "bad guys" suddenly not want to do harm to anyone, and at the same time makes the "good guys", who may very well carry everywhere else in their lives, suddenly untrustworthy within its confines? If a person can carry safely at the grocery, at the theater, at the mall, whatever, within the law, and do no harm to anyone at all in the process, what makes the hospital an unsafe place for him or her to do so? Again, I have no intention of carrying while on shift, but the policy some people seem to favor leaves that safe carrier unarmed and defenseless all the way to and from their time clocked in in that building, until they arrive back home. What harm does that pistol do locked in the locker? OTOH, the nurse doing so may well find herself (or himself, for that matter) the intended victim of some mope who thinks that scrubs mean you have drugs on you, or who doesn't care about that, but sees you as a good target to rape. (Not all rapists are heterosexual, after all) SimonJester's post about the 1.5 mile walk to and from the car is positively chilling. While I don't agree with many of the posters here who, paraphrased (and without intent on my part to mock,) seem to be saying, "look, guns R bad, mmmkay?", I would like to commend my fellow members who have kept the discussion peaceful and polite. That, sadly, is a rarity in the online discussions about the carry of firearms, at least the ones I've seen where mixed views are held. So... thank you, members, guides, mods, and admins, for keeping it civil. (mostly) Bill

We all face threats from wild and feral animals no matter where we live. The only difference is how many legs those wild and feral animals have.

Ever had someone pop you with an IV tourniquet or squirt you with a saline flush, just playful stuff in down time? Or walked into one of these play-"wars"? What was your option at the time? Scream in surprise, throw your arms up, and dive for cover? try to run? Now replay the scenario when you had a tourniquet or a flush in your pocket. Suddenly, you're not a helpless victim anymore. "Dirty Harry" did love "taking out the trash", didn't he? Leaving aside the fictional character of that fictional character, the scene where he said that line was one in which the perps had guns on everyone, had already been shooting *at him*, and he was just done with them. In addition, he had started off talking to them, trying to deescalate, and doing so in that great, gravel-like, voice he is so famous for... and only when he had no option left did he draw and fire. Maybe I missed something in that movie. Do you recall the scene? What option did he have that I didn't see? (I realize that sounds sarcastic. I don't mean it to. I'm honestly curious as to what option someone thinks he might have had. Given also that "Harry" was a cop, what option would he have had had he instead been a British bobby?) Bill

I don't know if you mean me, but I'm reminded of the anecdote about the cop that pulled over a little lady of about 75 years, for speeding. "Good evening, Ma'am.", he began, and went through the usual, do you know why I pulled you over? Do you know how fast you were going?...and just before he asked for her license and registration, he asked if she had any weapons in the car. "Yes, officer. I have my .357 here in the console, my .45 in the glovebox, my little 9mm in my purse and a .380 in the door here. Oh, and my AR-15 is in the trunk." The officer stood, shocked, for a moment, then asked her, "You have five guns in your car... what are you so scared of?" And the lady answered him, "Not a @#$%ing thing." I'm not scared. I know there are bad people in this world that do bad things. I just plan to not be one of their victims is all. Bill

Fair enough. What about on your way to or from your car? What about on your way between the hospital and your home? I'm not specifically talking about carrying on the floor. I'm talking about the default being to carry, and that when you don't, you have a specifically articulable reason not to do so. Say, for example, I'm leaving the house in the morning. When I get dressed, one part of doing so is to put my keys, pocketknife, wallet, and cash in my pockets. At the same time, I put a pistol on my belt. I'm not carrying to the store, or to the gas station or to the theater. I'm going to the store, gas station, or theater. It's my norm when getting dressed to put my pistol on. Now let's say that I know I have to go downtown to the courthouse to file my name as running for office. The courthouse is a no-carry place in my county, so I have to decide whether I'll leave it locked up in the car or leave it at home in the safe. The former is more likely, though it does mean someone might choose to break in to my car and steal the whole car with my gun in it. (no particular reason... there are no "gun" stickers or anything like that on my car, nothing to indicate one might be in there, I'm just saying that if they decide to take my car, that'd be a "bonus" for them. That might be a reason I'd leave the pistol at home.) You might have a similar line of reasoning. Your work situation doesn't make carry a good option for you, from your description of it. By all means, if you're not comfortable, don't carry. I fully support your decision. I just don't think that one person's situation should define everyone else's. Fair? Bill

I've read to the end of page 4 so far, and I have a question. A few people have mentioned how they would never bring a gun on hospital property or how shocked it seemed they were when someone else did. "Hospital property" constitutes an arbitrary line (the property line) on a map somewhere, right? And the person who carries within the law is typically a very peaceable person... that is, s/he is typically not a drinker or a druggie, not violent, doesn't go around threatening people... again, I did say typically; there are always a few bad examples out there of any group (the few nurses each year who lose licenses due to drug use are hardly representative of all nurses) Further, the "bad guys" in society who carry outside the law (felons, etc) are going to carry and are going to do bad things because it's what they do. OK...bear with me, I'm getting to the question... So bad guys are going to carry and do bad things and good guys are going to go about their business peaceably, with the knowledge that some percentage of good guys will also have made the decision that they are not going to be victims that day. What is it about that arbitrary line on a map that will stop bad guys from doing bad things and will make good guys start doing bad things inside of it? From my perspective, it's not about "laws don't stop bad behavior so let's eliminate those laws"... it's about "gun laws specifically not stopping what they're supposedly passed to stop, so let's do something different that will." It's not the speed limit that stops the speeder, it's the fact that there's a guy sitting in a car with a radar gun that will charge them a bunch of money if they do it... and that doesn't stop them, but it provides a penalty for their actions. We need a penalty for bad behavior with a gun that will stop people from exhibiting bad behaviors. A study I read about, where a large number of imprisoned felons were asked what they feared most, the answer was "an armed victim", not a cop. Many said that if they knew a potential victim was armed, they would choose another victim instead. So it seems to me that we've found the penalty they fear: dying (or being hurt by) the person they meant to victimize. "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell What happens if there are no rough men around? Shouldn't we be able to do violence on our own behalf? Or should we forever pass that task to someone else as if it was "beneath us"? Being a nurse, a healer, should not make one a willing victim of robbery (property violence), any more than being a woman should make one a willing victim of rape (sexual violence). Just my thoughts. Bill

Better that than a Rose among the pricks. Sorry. Hadda be said.

I could be mistaken, and I'm sure I'll be corrected (which I welcome) if I am,but I think this is a government pay tier... government employee, tier 5. (Actually, on looking, that's GS-5, but I'll leave this in case that was a typo.)

I'm touched. Thank you both. :) I have 11 weeks left of being a formal student. (I stress the word "formal") After that, I have these visions of me sitting in the corner, sucking my thumb and crying because BSN looms large and I am but small and burned out over the whole "going to class" thing. (Hey, I didn't say they were realistic visions, I just said I had them!) As for where I will go for those... As soon as I can use the PM system on here, I'd be interested to know where you are in the world. Who knows? Stranger things have happened. I am now jazzed, BTW, so again, thank you for the votes of confidence. :) Bill

Ouch. And a deserved ouch at that. Not from your posts, but from realizing my own hypocrisy... of sorts. I went back and looked at the post where I was talking about the mom who refused students... then I went and looked at post #160, also mine. I gave the advice to those coming through after me to forget getting checked off and instead focus on the pt: That's who we're there for, not ourselves. Pardon me while I wipe the egg off my face that I just put there. Admittedly, the OB/Peds experience I had helped shape part of that advice, but this line of posts shows me I still have to chew on this one for a bit before I get sick of it, spit it out and leave it behind me. A good "sounding board" is good not because it echoes what you do, but because it lets you hear what something really sounds like. Thank you for being a good (and reasonably gentle) sounding board for me, both of you. Likes are inbound. Bill

A fair point. I'm pretty sure if someone had a complaint about any of us, that person would be seeking a new program, or at least reapplying to this one next term, because they would not be completing that semester. My comments about narrow-mindedness and short-sightedness were not attitude, though I see why they were taken by you (all) as such. I meant that when a caregiver at any level is no longer a student, has passed boards and is working as the primary caregiver, especially as a nurse, their competency is expected at at least the most basic of levels. That is to say, when I'm your nurse, if you're delivering your baby, you have every right to expect that I know what I'm doing, especially if the delivery is precipitous/emergent, as in "doc's on the way, but not here yet." It is shortsighted to refuse to allow students the opportunity to learn and narrow-minded to expect that they will do so on "someone else". Manikins only go so far; there is no substitute for the reality of a mom with a baby exiting her body and entering the world. In no way did I mean that as derogatory to the pt, but frustration; as it happens, I *have* delivered a baby before, but some of my classmates (of both genders) were also prevented from having this learning experience in clinical, and they understand what they missed, but only in the most superficial of ways...kinda like reading sheet music as compared to hearing the orchestra play. I respect her position as the pt, and likewise, any cultural boundaries that may be (but to my knowledge in this case, were not) present. The bottom line is that the pt does have that right. I don't have to like her decision, I just have to honor it and defend it if needed. It's the difference between personal and professional perspectives Speaking of, I appreciate all of your multiple perspectives, and Horseshoe, thank you for the compliments and the advice. I hope to live up to the former and learn from the latter. Bill

Take heart. Some schools still provide that experience. I take my last final in 11 weeks, God willing, and I still give NOTHING without the CI right there. I have one instructor who insists that she be present for every med passed by every student, every day, and does it, even with 10 students. I am still in awe of her ability to do that, and still get meds passed (mostly) on time. The floor nurse is a resource to us, and a gift at that, and we're taught (less by word and more by attitude) to respect that fact. Thanks for your perspective.