Do i have the right to be excused from being present during circumcision?

[PCT_Nat]

Hello everybody, I'm looking for advice, so please be understanding and i want to warn before hand that i am not here to start a debate.

here is my problem: I found out that during our nursing classes we will be working in neonatal unit and part of the learning will be being present during circumcision.

I want to ask my instructors to be excused from that, but i'm afraid i will get a "no".

circumcision is very traumatic for me emotionally, especially after learning everything that i know about it. I can deal with death, i can deal with pain for a good cause, but there is nothing i can change about the way i feel about cirumcision.

I never impose my views on anyone, i just don't want to see it again, because the last time i saw it i was upset for months and to this day i can not for get it - it's been 3 years.

For those who can not understand my position - picture yourself training to be a nurse in Africa were FGM is a common practice in some cultures.

Well, enough said.

Please, advice me what is the best way i can bring up this issue during my upcoming interview with a nursing staff member and if someone knows anything about NY laws, i would greatly appreciate your advice.

thanks. Nat

[mattsmom81]

I am not here to argue with you, Nat. To answer your question, I would not practice nursing in a country that practices female genital mutilation. The fact that circumcision is a religious practice in this country comes under 'respect for another's religious beliefs'.. I may not agree with it, but I must respect it.

Application of topical anesthesia should eliminate discomfort for the infant so I cannot justify refusing to assist and care for a post circ infant since it is a basic nursing function in newborn nursery....

The fact you were irritated by Molly's and my post may suggest you need to look further into your feelings and possibly control issues. Are you in nursing school with a personal agenda to effect another human being's value judgments? To stand up and protest another's very personal decision? Do you truly wish to help others, even if you don't agree with what is happening in all cases, and can you respect another's choice if it is not your own?

My reasons for asking are not argumentative:

1) You may find nursing to be quite stressful for you if you can't deal with situations you disagree with morally or ethically.

2) You will not be a helping presence if your judgmentalism is displayed to your patients and coworkers.

You need not answer me, Nat, but I do hope you ask yourself .:) Good luck to you in any case...I wish you well. :)

[TracyB,RN, RN]

Nat, talk with your instructor. I also felt (&still feel the same). I saw a circumsion during clinicals & was supposed to observe several more. I just couldn't do it!! I talked to my instructor & told her that I saw all I felt I needed to. She was cool about it.

I guess it's a good thing I had 2 girls.

Good luck :)

[OBNURSEHEATHER]

I would talk with your instructor about this. At my hospital, none of the students are ever forced to watch circs. If they are in the nursery at the right time, they are given the option to watch.

But I think you really need to do some soul searching here. There aren't many areas of nursing where some moral/ethical dilemma doesn't arise on a daily basis. I'm a nurse, and I care for my patients. I don't always like my patients or the choices they make, but it doesn't change the care I give, or propel me to refuse that care altogether.

Circs don't bother me. I assist with a dozen a shift sometimes. I'm happy to be there to give those babies a little TLC when it's over, and to make sure the parents are informed about how to care for it.

Heather

[shay]

Okay, here's my 2 cents...

1. I think this falls under the category of moral/religious objection, meaning, you cannot be forced to participate in/view any procedure you are morally/religiously/whatever reason opposed to. I work w/J. witness nurses who refuse to go to the blood bank to get blood, refuse to hang it, won't take care of a pt. getting it...even in an emergency. They are allowed to refuse b/c it is their religious preference.

2. You keep talking about your prior experiences in Russia, as a child, as an adult, etc.. Pardon me if I sound rude (I honestly don't mean to), but it sounds to me like you have a serious case of PTSD. You need counseling....intense counseling....seriously.

I mean, each time you post you mention some other traumatic experience in your past, and it doesn't sound like you've really dealt with that. It sounds to me like you're almost having 'flashbacks.' Is that accurate? Really, please think about talking to someone....mattsmom is right. Nursing brings things to you on a daily basis that are traumatic and morally/ethically dicey. It can be an emotional minefield if you haven't resolved your own problems, or at least started to deal with them.

I don't think there's anything wrong w/not wanting to view a circ. That's totally fine. I'm just worried about you on another level with what you have experienced in your past that seems to have almost traumatized you. Please take care of yourself. Be good to yourself, okay?

[mattsmom81]

Originally posted by shay

Okay, here's my 2 cents...

1. I think this falls under the category of moral/religious objection, meaning, you cannot be forced to participate in/view any procedure you are morally/religiously/whatever reason opposed to. I work w/J. witness nurses who refuse to go to the blood bank to get blood, refuse to hang it, won't take care of a pt. getting it...even in an emergency. They are allowed to refuse b/c it is their religious preference.

2. You keep talking about your prior experiences in Russia, as a child, as an adult, etc.. Pardon me if I sound rude (I honestly don't mean to), but it sounds to me like you have a serious case of PTSD. You need counseling....intense counseling....seriously.

I mean, each time you post you mention some other traumatic experience in your past, and it doesn't sound like you've really dealt with that. It sounds to me like you're almost having 'flashbacks.' Is that accurate? Really, please think about talking to someone....mattsmom is right. Nursing brings things to you on a daily basis that are traumatic and morally/ethically dicey. It can be an emotional minefield if you haven't resolved your own problems, or at least started to deal with them.

I don't think there's anything wrong w/not wanting to view a circ. That's totally fine. I'm just worried about you on another level with what you have experienced in your past that seems to have almost traumatized you. Please take care of yourself. Be good to yourself, okay?

Shay, yours is a very eloquent post and spoke to Nat's issues in a much better manner than mine...thank you! I am concerned about Nat's welfare as well and as I look back I failed to prioritize this in my comments.

Our past traumas have a way of popping back up if we don't resolve them... I hope, Nat, that you will care for yourself first.

[PCT_Nat]

I really couldn't believe my eyes after reading your posts - Shay and Mattsmom.

First, you insult me by saying that I'm biased and have a presonal agenda, now you think i need mental help, that I have control isues, and ALL of this is thrown in my face simply because I don't want to wittenss circumcision?

Please, stop analysing me, it is not your place.

I would like to inform you that most circumcisions in america are done for non-religious reasons. The reasons are:

- everyone does it

- to look like daddy

- intact member is dirty

- it looks ugly

- my child will be made fun of in school

there are such organizations as doctors against circumcision, nurses for the right of the child, etc where people feel exactly the same way I do about circumcision . Are these people also insane, with control issues and personal agenda?

There are doctors who refuse to perform circumcisions, does that make them unprofessional?

I just don't understand why do u feel so strongly that my personal beliefs will reflect on my professional behavior. Does your belief in cirumcision make you biased? What makes you so sure that I would impose my personal judgement on to a person making the decision to circumcise?

I am sure u know nurses/doctors who are against abortion and are able to provide care and support to people who choose to do it.

My stand is not about a "person", but about the whole aspect of practice of circumcision, religious issues aside. Foreskin is not a desease, it is not a disorder and it should be treated as such, this is why it is not like any other procedure.

[traumaRUs, MSN, APRN]

Nat - I think that if circumcision is the only procedure you feel you couldn't assist with, then make it easy and don't go into OB nursing. Otherwise, there are plenty of great job opportunities out there and go for it!!!

Although I am an american, I was in the military for three years and have been a military wife for 22 years. When stationed overseas, especially in Korea, I witnessed some horrific things too. Other countries (and I have worked in Japan, Korea, Spain) view health care and medicine in general quite differently than we do. As a visitor to their country I always let it be known up front what I was comfortable doing. I always did my fair share (an more), so I wasn't getting out of work, but I can't contradict my ethics.

If I understand your post correctly, Nat, this is all you're trying to do. Please talk to your nursing instructor. There shouldn't be any problem with this at all.

I wish you luck...come work with me in the ER, central Illinois!!!

[fergus51]

I work OB and don't participate in circs. I will care for the baby on the PP side, but I don't step into that treatment room when a circ is happening. It has never affected my ability to care for moms who do circ their sons, I just don't want to see it again.

Really, I don't see the big deal. If a nurse can refuse to hang blood (a life saving procedure) I really don't see what the big deal is if a nurse doesn't want to participate in a circ (a cosmetic procedure).... Nat, I hope you don't let this upset your OB time.

[Teshiee]

I know there are some pretty unpleasant things in nursing! I can understand that for some of us there are some things you just can't accept. I personally would not work in an abortion clinic, yet I still believe in pro choice.

I see those boards where they strap down those little babies. It is quite brutal. I had my son circumcised thinking it was the thing to do. Doing some research now I feel bad for doing it. I think you should tell your instructor express your concerns. What you have witnessed in your life is yours none of us could never understand what the effects of circumcision does to you we can only empathize. I hope everything works out for you in the long run.

[shay]

Originally posted by PCT_Nat

First, you insult me by saying that I'm biased and have a presonal agenda, now you think i need mental help, that I have control isues, and ALL of this is thrown in my face simply because I don't want to wittenss circumcision?

Please, stop analysing me, it is not your place.

Good God, please take a pill. I was not 'insulting' you, nor was I saying that you have control issues or need mental help because you don't want to watch a frickin' circ. That is not at all what I said, please re-read my post.

I SAID it was fine to not want to watch a circ, did I not? I also said that I think you need to talk to someone about the stuff you kept bringing up in every single post about your past traumas.

Whatever. I was trying to help, but forget it. I am soooooo done with you.

[SharonH, RN]

Originally posted by PCT_Nat

I really couldn't believe my eyes after reading your posts - Shay and Mattsmom.

First, you insult me by saying that I'm biased and have a presonal agenda, now you think i need mental help, that I have control isues, and ALL of this is thrown in my face simply because I don't want to wittenss circumcision?

Please, stop analysing me, it is not your place.

I would like to inform you that most circumcisions in america are done for non-religious reasons. The reasons are:

- everyone does it

- to look like daddy

- intact member is dirty

- it looks ugly

- my child will be made fun of in school

there are such organizations as doctors against circumcision, nurses for the right of the child, etc where people feel exactly the same way I do about circumcision . Are these people also insane, with control issues and personal agenda?

There are doctors who refuse to perform circumcisions, does that make them unprofessional?

I just don't understand why do u feel so strongly that my personal beliefs will reflect on my professional behavior. Does your belief in cirumcision make you biased? What makes you so sure that I would impose my personal judgement on to a person making the decision to circumcise?

I am sure u know nurses/doctors who are against abortion and are able to provide care and support to people who choose to do it.

My stand is not about a "person", but about the whole aspect of practice of circumcision, religious issues aside. Foreskin is not a desease, it is not a disorder and it should be treated as such, this is why it is not like any other procedure.

Nat, I totally agree with this. Personally I had my son circumcised and I am ashamed to admit that I used some of the same rationale you just mentioned. I will always regret that I didn't have the good sense to resist that foolishness and leave him intact. I will alway regret purposefully putting my son through that needless trauma. And for those who mentioned anesthesia during the procedure, you forget that after the anesthetic wears off, there is still pain while it heals for a few days.

Don't let others judge you and tell you that because you want to take a strong stand then you have a problem or need counseling. You sound like you have it together to me.

[OBNURSEHEATHER]

Ya know, there is ALREADY a thread about the pros and cons of circumcision. It if chuck full of opinions, horror stories, and personal attacks against people for their views. If that is what you want, GO THERE!

This poster asked if she had the right to refuse to watch, to which we all replied "YES". Now get over yourselves and quit turning this thread into something it isn't.

Heather