Earlier today there was a thread regarding Dr. Kevorkian's release from prison. Just as I was adding my thoughts, it got moved to the Current Events restricted area.
At that time, it seemed like there was 100% support for him. Honestly, I was surprised, especially since not everyone he killed was terminally ill. (I'm from Michigan, though, so maybe I know more about his history).
So I'm wondering, do nurses generally support the theory of physician assisted suicide?
Well in my opinion I think people just need to "Agree to Disagree" cause it is apparent everyone believes their own way and we are just here to discuss I thought and NOT try to change anyones opinion one way or another--rather it be for or against PAS rather one believes we have a soul or not--the point here is that we ALL are entitled to our opinion rather we think it is right or wrong thats just the way it is!!!! So we need to agree to disagree or at lest that is MY opinion :)
Some people still might want to discuss it and present their views and listen to others and debate. There's nothing wrong with that, as long as it's friendly.
However, knowing when to fold them and say "I agree to disagree" and move on is very important.
Some people still might want to discuss it and present their views and listen to others and debate. There's nothing wrong with that, as long as it's friendly.
However, knowing when to fold them and say "I agree to disagree" and move on is very important.
Specializes in ICU, SDU, OR, RR, Ortho, Hospice RN.
i support physician assisted sucide in as much the patient is terminal
and in a lot of pain. i think the decision should be ultimately the patients and family after speaking with their cleryman, doctor and
administration.
by assistance, i mean stop all measures, give pain medications and keep the patient as comfortable as possible until nature takes its cause.
many people with dnr do not get a chance to verbalize their wishes,
because decisions are made by family who is emotional and noticable
under stress. nurses can draw on their own feelings privately but the
patients wishes should be paramount in all cases. thanks for listening.
I wish to disagree whole heartedly in your mention of Many people with DRN's do not get a chance to verbalize there wishes. Most I have had dealings with the DNR IS at their request. They are FULLY informed about what the DRN stands for and their wishes we uphold until their death. This is what hospice is all about. The patients wishes are what we base their goals for care and plan of treatment on.
The patients that a family request DNR's for, are again made once they are fully informed and given time before making their decisions. I would hope no decision would be made under stress or duress.
oncallloraine--I'm glad you weren't there for my Grandfather's "beautiful journey" where he drowned in his own secretions, alternating between choking and screaming in pain from the PVCs he was throwing. I'd have gotten pretty angry if at that point you told me you were against the very large doses of morphine we gave him because we'd be denying him something "good for the soul".
I agree with you that dying is a stage of life. But I also agree with reesern that death is often romanticized. And I disagree that 95% of deaths can be peaceful. I wish it were true, but I do not believe it to be so.
No, I don't! I agree totally with nwamom. PAS is the easiest way out.
I think that there is no difference between giving someone a shot for a "decent" death, and blowing their brains out...besides the method. You're still ending a life.
Pain is a part of life.
If I support PSA, that goes against the whole reason why I became a nurse in the first place. It doesn't make sense.
Who am I to choose? I don't think anyone has the right to decide who is better off if they died.
My grandmother says she doesn't want to live anymore. I asked her why, and she said because she was old and didn't want to be in people's way.
My Dad said he thinks PSA should be done, because when he grows old he doesn't want to be helpless, in bed, with people taking care of him....or in the process close to dying but not dead. Besides the pain, it's all about dying with dignity as a human being.
As nurses we can still provide that care, so that people can still die with dignity. PSA is the easy way out. It's not dying with dignity; it's anything other than that.
I agree with mjlrn97. I would give that patient pain meds to ease the pain, but...not to OD them.
No, I don't! I agree totally with nwamom. PAS is the easiest way out.
I think that there is no difference between giving someone a shot for a "decent" death, and blowing their brains out...besides the method. You're still ending a life.
Pain is a part of life.
If I support PSA, that goes against the whole reason why I became a nurse in the first place. It doesn't make sense.
Who am I to choose? I don't think anyone has the right to decide who is better off if they died.
My grandmother says she doesn't want to live anymore. I asked her why, and she said because she was old and didn't want to be in people's way.
My Dad said he thinks PSA should be done, because when he grows old he doesn't want to be helpless, in bed, with people taking care of him....or in the process close to dying but not dead. Besides the pain, it's all about dying with dignity as a human being.
As nurses we can still provide that care, so that people can still die with dignity. PSA is the easy way out. It's not dying with dignity; it's anything other than that.
I agree with mjlrn97. I would give that patient pain meds to ease the pain, but...not to OD them.
I agree wholeheartedly with neferet and the majority of people I have heard requesting PAS is for the rational that they don't want to be a burden on their loved ones! At times we are all a burden to someone else for whatever the reason, however I don't feel that is worthy reason for playing russian roulette with someone elses life. I also am becoming a nurse to be of comfort to my pts. however the day I am forced to give something I know is actively ending a PTS. LIFE is the day I refuse to participate in that case, regardless of the consequences. My only other choice would be to squirt the meds down the sink, as I will not be a party to ending someone elses life, I would be no more different than a common murderer if I was to engage, except the difference would be that there was still INTENT to harm causing actual physical death but that I had no malice. Forget it, there is no argument, it's black and white - you either participate in the killing of another or walk away and have no part of it- MY HANDS WILL ALWAYS REMAIN CLEAN!!!
No one chooses PAS for another...if it's done right. It needs to be a decision made by the patient. I don't feel it's dignified to lay in a dirty diaper to wait while someone comes to clean you up. It's not dignified to cough up phlegm and have it lay on you until someone comes to clean it up. It's not dignified to be placed in a chair with a "clothing protector" so your food spills don't end up on your clothes while you're being fed pureed meat.
I think some people need to realize that since they haven't been in the position of dying, or even being seriously injured or sick and needing to depend on another for everything, they should not consider making the decision for others.
But that also goes to families. They should not be allowed to say, "We're taking her to hospice. But don't tell her." And the patient is dead four days later.
As to whether or not there is unfinished business...that would be the patient's concern wouldn't it? Or shall we make spiritual decisions for them too? I"m sure whatever God or Goddess they believe in will be there to meet them and address the situation thereby taking it out of the hands of mere mortals.
No one chooses PAS for another...if it's done right. It needs to be a decision made by the patient. I don't feel it's dignified to lay in a dirty diaper to wait while someone comes to clean you up. It's not dignified to cough up phlegm and have it lay on you until someone comes to clean it up. It's not dignified to be placed in a chair with a "clothing protector" so your food spills don't end up on your clothes while you're being fed pureed meat.
I think some people need to realize that since they haven't been in the position of dying, or even being seriously injured or sick and needing to depend on another for everything, they should not consider making the decision for others.
But that also goes to families. They should not be allowed to say, "We're taking her to hospice. But don't tell her." And the patient is dead four days later.
As to whether or not there is unfinished business...that would be the patient's concern wouldn't it? Or shall we make spiritual decisions for them too? I"m sure whatever God or Goddess they believe in will be there to meet them and address the situation thereby taking it out of the hands of mere mortals.
It is not dignified to lay in stirrups, huffing and puffing to give birth. It is not dignified to encourage your surgury pt to fart. It is not dignified for a 50 y/o GIB to be incontinent of stool. It is definitely undignified to have a colonoscopy. It is undignified to cough phlegm out of your throat after a trach. I could go on but you get the idea. Wereyou saying that being in an undignified situation is reasonable grounds for PAS?
It is not dignified to lay in stirrups, huffing and puffing to give birth. It is not dignified to encourage your surgury pt to fart. It is not dignified for a 50 y/o GIB to be incontinent of stool. It is definitely undignified to have a colonoscopy. It is undignified to cough phlegm out of your throat after a trach. I could go on but you get the idea. Wereyou saying that being in an undignified situation is reasonable grounds for PAS?
All those situations you mention are temporary. Dying slowly is not.
It is not dignified to lay in stirrups, huffing and puffing to give birth. It is not dignified to encourage your surgury pt to fart. It is not dignified for a 50 y/o GIB to be incontinent of stool. It is definitely undignified to have a colonoscopy. It is undignified to cough phlegm out of your throat after a trach. I could go on but you get the idea. Wereyou saying that being in an undignified situation is reasonable grounds for PAS?
We are talking about terminally ill patients. I'm saying that if a person chooses to die with dignity it should be their choice. A woman decides to get pregnant, (hopefully) and then chooses how to give birth. Since I believe birth is a beautiful and wonderful situation, the only undignified part is what "man" as added; ie the stirrups, etc. Many women no longer choose the undignified stirrups, shaves and enemas, so I think that argument is done. Farting is a normal body function, that we prefer not to do in public, but leads to better health in that situation, as does having a trach if all goes as we hope. I've had colds and coughed up phlegm before...didn't even know I was suppose to feel undignified. Maybe the indignity is expecting them to walk the busy halls instead of giving them a private place to walk or laying there waiting to be cleaned. Being terminally ill only leads to death so choosing to skip the undignified part should be a personal decision. My son had a colostomy in his early 20's and it eventually led to better health and life. Being undignified was acceptable considering the alternative, which would have been a painful and unnecessary death. I assure you if we discussed how unnecessrily humiliated that hospital made him feel, we could start a whole new thread. We already have insurance companies deciding a major portion of our care...now there are others who want to decide our death. Where does it stop?
oldflossie
3 Posts
i support physician assisted sucide in as much the patient is terminal
and in a lot of pain. i think the decision should be ultimately the patients and family after speaking with their cleryman, doctor and
administration.
by assistance, i mean stop all measures, give pain medications and keep the patient as comfortable as possible until nature takes its cause.
many people with dnr do not get a chance to verbalize their wishes,
because decisions are made by family who is emotional and noticable
under stress. nurses can draw on their own feelings privately but the
patients wishes should be paramount in all cases. thanks for listening.