Earlier today there was a thread regarding Dr. Kevorkian's release from prison. Just as I was adding my thoughts, it got moved to the Current Events restricted area.
At that time, it seemed like there was 100% support for him. Honestly, I was surprised, especially since not everyone he killed was terminally ill. (I'm from Michigan, though, so maybe I know more about his history).
So I'm wondering, do nurses generally support the theory of physician assisted suicide?
No one chooses PAS for another...if it's done right. It needs to be a decision made by the patient. I don't feel it's dignified to lay in a dirty diaper to wait while someone comes to clean you up. It's not dignified to cough up phlegm and have it lay on you until someone comes to clean it up. It's not dignified to be placed in a chair with a "clothing protector" so your food spills don't end up on your clothes while you're being fed pureed meat.
I think some people need to realize that since they haven't been in the position of dying, or even being seriously injured or sick and needing to depend on another for everything, they should not consider making the decision for others.
But that also goes to families. They should not be allowed to say, "We're taking her to hospice. But don't tell her." And the patient is dead four days later.
As to whether or not there is unfinished business...that would be the patient's concern wouldn't it? Or shall we make spiritual decisions for them too? I"m sure whatever God or Goddess they believe in will be there to meet them and address the situation thereby taking it out of the hands of mere mortals.
So her family wantd to take her to hospice care where they would have addressed her comfort and pain and allowed the family to be with her they chose. And they wanted to spare her the indignity and possible emotional harm of telling her we are taking you to hospice to die comfortably. Sounds like a very loving and concerned family, at least to me. They are from the same family so they have had a lifetime to become aware of the others spiritual Choice re life and death. It would seem to me.
To me that seems oh so much kinder than constantly bringing Grandma or Grandpa in everytime they with their terminal condition, suffering unbelieveably. Just to save them because the children for whatever belief system, dont want to see them pass on to heaven. I find that more difficult to understand.
We have reached a point in our life skills and knowledge and medical care that we can prolong life almost interminably. I say we havent learned enough yet. We either save and enable a life to be worth living. Or we develope the compassion to say this enough. At least untill we learn to do better.
Ive been around a long time, mostly ER. I fully remember when the elderly and terminally ill, or the fatally injured without hope. came to the ER. The Doctor would put the patient in a quiet area and allow the family to be with them along with a chaplain to help them all. In their time of need. Comfort and Respect went a long ways.
PS we were much less judgemental in those days, more accepting and compassionate by far.
All those situations you mention are temporary. Dying slowly is not.
True but dying slowly doesn't mean you sit there all the time w/ drool dripping down your chest, etc. as implied by the poster. Sometimes it happens just like undignified conditions happen throughout a person's life. If a nurse is letting a pt (dying or not) lay there w/ drool or stool or what ever then s/he is not performing her job (mabey due to staffing or what ever).
We are talking about terminally ill patients. I'm saying that if a person chooses to die with dignity it should be their choice. A woman decides to get pregnant, (hopefully) and then chooses how to give birth. Since I believe birth is a beautiful and wonderful situation, the only undignified part is what "man" as added; ie the stirrups, etc. Many women no longer choose the undignified stirrups, shaves and enemas, so I think that argument is done. Farting is a normal body function, that we prefer not to do in public, but leads to better health in that situation, as does having a trach if all goes as we hope. I've had colds and coughed up phlegm before...didn't even know I was suppose to feel undignified. Maybe the indignity is expecting them to walk the busy halls instead of giving them a private place to walk or laying there waiting to be cleaned. Being terminally ill only leads to death so choosing to skip the undignified part should be a personal decision. My son had a colostomy in his early 20's and it eventually led to better health and life. Being undignified was acceptable considering the alternative, which would have been a painful and unnecessary death. I assure you if we discussed how unnecessrily humiliated that hospital made him feel, we could start a whole new thread. We already have insurance companies deciding a major portion of our care...now there are others who want to decide our death. Where does it stop?
My point was that undignified situations happen throughout life, not just when death is approaching.
True but dying slowly doesn't mean you sit there all the time w/ drool dripping down your chest, etc. as implied by the poster. Sometimes it happens just like undignified conditions happen throughout a person's life. If a nurse is letting a pt (dying or not) lay there w/ drool or stool or what ever then s/he is not performing her job (mabey due to staffing or what ever).
Dying is not pleasant. It just isn't. It's not the fault of the nurse or caregiver, it just is not a nice thing to happen.
Dying is not pleasant. It just isn't. It's not the fault of the nurse or caregiver, it just is not a nice thing to happen.
True most of the time (I have seen some pretty peaceful deaths). but it is a nurses fault if a pt sits in secretions for any length of time ( unless it's a staffing issue).
No, I do not support physician who assisted on suicide. Its inhumane to act such killings in the process. I may consider that behavior as unhealthy in mind and in the eyes of God.
No, I do not support physician who assisted on suicide. Its inhumane to act such killings in the process. I may consider that behavior as unhealthy in mind and in the eyes of God.
I understand your religious objections, but could you clarify your use of the term "inhumane"?
I have to laugh at the irony most of us display when we discuss legal and moral issues. We will do anything to preserve life, our own or someone elses, yet we will also condemn someone to death when they committ a horrible crime. We put them on trial and give them a fair chance to prove their innocence then we decde their fate.
We allow people the right to decide most anything about their lives, why not when they are over? We test people all the time to see if they are mentally competant to stand trial. The same tests coupld apply to whether or not they are competant to decide if they want their life to end.
We allow and even rally support for the rights of women to go into the doctor and decide their babies life should be over before it really gets started good. What is the difference between one almost life and one miserable, ready to end life. Because it might get better you say? Depression is curable unlike a physical terminal illness?
We are a selfish society indeed when we would rather see someone forced to continue the misery they are seeking to escape rather than taking things into the hands of ther trusted family physician who can aid them in any decision they make, be it treatment options for the depression to make them feel "happy" or an exit on their own terms.
I work in LTC, I see so many 90 to 100 year olds whose families insist on feeding tubes to keep grandma & great grandpa alive, all the people they know are gone. The quality of life for these pt's is basically nil, they can't speak, don't recognise any one, can do nothing for themselves. They are in bed 21 out of 24 hours, I will do everything in my power to care for them, however, I feel sorry that the people making decisions for them aren't considering whats best for the pt. It seems the reason for applying GT etc, is based on grand kids & great grandkids not wanting to let go. While I understand that standing by and letting a loved one pass is very difficult, I have to question what the pt would want if they had a say. Sometimes medical care prolongs the life but at the cost of living.
As for PAS, I agree that with strict guidlines it can be a good thing.
A cruel act to assist anyone who wants to commit suicide even how chronically or mentally ill they may be. I may sound judgmental but this how we perceive life. Life is a precious thing to be wasted. We are in the field of medicine, we have to preserve life as what we have been taught. So, where are all the doctors and nurses should stand for? Are we really the one who decide the life of the other person? It seems that on the other way around, we let ourselves be confused on what is life or death really means to us.
The last time I studied this subject in depth, and wrote a paper on it, it was legal in the state of Oregon. I don't know it that is still the case, but I certainly hope so. If you read the law and see how strict the criteria are, it is more understandable. The MD or nurses do nothing to the pt. The MD writes a prescription for a drug that the pt takes at home to end some horrible intractable pain or nausea which makes living unbearable. It also requires 2 docs to conquer.
I only hope and pray that this is available to myself when I reach the end of my life if I am suffering so much that nothing can help me, that I can choose myself when to go home...
teeituptom, BSN, RN
4,283 Posts
So her family wantd to take her to hospice care where they would have addressed her comfort and pain and allowed the family to be with her they chose. And they wanted to spare her the indignity and possible emotional harm of telling her we are taking you to hospice to die comfortably. Sounds like a very loving and concerned family, at least to me. They are from the same family so they have had a lifetime to become aware of the others spiritual Choice re life and death. It would seem to me.
To me that seems oh so much kinder than constantly bringing Grandma or Grandpa in everytime they with their terminal condition, suffering unbelieveably. Just to save them because the children for whatever belief system, dont want to see them pass on to heaven. I find that more difficult to understand.
We have reached a point in our life skills and knowledge and medical care that we can prolong life almost interminably. I say we havent learned enough yet. We either save and enable a life to be worth living. Or we develope the compassion to say this enough. At least untill we learn to do better.
Ive been around a long time, mostly ER. I fully remember when the elderly and terminally ill, or the fatally injured without hope. came to the ER. The Doctor would put the patient in a quiet area and allow the family to be with them along with a chaplain to help them all. In their time of need. Comfort and Respect went a long ways.
PS we were much less judgemental in those days, more accepting and compassionate by far.