Do Nurses Earn Big Money? You Decide.

[TheCommuter]

"You're rolling in the big bucks!"

Am I the only one who becomes at least mildly irritated whenever a random individual finds out that someone is a nurse and proceeds to say, "You're rolling in the big bucks!"

To keep things honest, I'll recall a few observations about the people who generally do (and don't) broadcast their feelings about nursing pay. In my personal experience, no doctor has ever told me to my face that I'm earning 'big money.' No engineers, attorneys, pharmacists, speech language pathologists, or other highly educated professionals have hooted and hollered about the supposedly 'good money' that nurses make once they discover that I am one. On the other hand, bank tellers, call center workers, clerks, and others who work at entry-level types of jobs have loudly made their feelings known about the incomes that nurses earn.

I was employed at two different fast food chains while in high school, and during my late teens, I worked a string of dead end jobs in the retail sector. From ages 20 to 23, I maintained employment at a paper products plant in high cost-of-living southern California as a factory worker and earned an income of about $40,000 yearly with some overtime. Of course I thought that nurses earned handsome salaries during my years in the entry-level workforce. After all, the average RN income of $70,000 annually far exceeded my yearly pay back in those days. Keep in mind that I paid virtually no taxes as a fast food worker because my income was so low. Also, I paid relatively little in the way of taxes as a retail store clerk.

Awash With Cash

Many of the certified nursing assistants (CNAs) with whom I've worked over the years have fallen into the trap of believing that the nurses are awash with cash. However, the ones that pursue higher education and become nurses themselves eventually come to the realization that the money is not all that it is cracked up to be. For example, Carla* is a single mother to three children under the age of 10 and earns $11 hourly as a CNA at a nursing home. Due to her lower income and family size, she qualifies for Section 8 housing, a monthly food stamp allotment, WIC vouchers, Medicaid, and childcare assistance. Moreover, Carla receives a tax refund of $4,000 every year due to the earned income tax credit (EITC), a federal program that provides lower income workers with added revenue through tax refunds. Much of Carla's CNA income is disposable.

Carla returned to school part-time, earned her RN license, and now earns $25 hourly at a home health company in a Midwestern state with a moderate cost of living. She nets approximately $3,000 per month after taxes and family health insurance are deducted as she no longer qualifies for Medicaid. She pays the full rent of $900 monthly for a small, modest 3-bedroom cottage because she no longer qualifies for Section 8. She pays $500 monthly to feed a family of four because she no longer qualifies for food stamps or WIC vouchers. She spends $175 weekly ($700 monthly) on after school childcare for three school-age children because she no longer qualifies for childcare assistance. Carla's other expenses include $200 monthly to keep the gas tank of her used car full, $300 a month for the electric/natural gas bill, a $50 monthly cell phone bill, and $50 per month for car insurance. Her bills add up to $2,700 per month, which leaves her with a whopping $300 left for savings, recreational pursuits and discretionary purposes. By the way, she did not see the nice tax refund of $4,000 this year since she no longer qualifies for EITC. During Carla's days as a CNA most of her income was disposable, but now that she's an RN she lives a paycheck to paycheck existence. I'm sure she wouldn't be too pleased with some schmuck proclaiming that she's earning 'big money.'

The people who are convinced that nurses earn plenty of money are like shrubs on the outside looking in because they do not know how much sweat and tears we shed for our educations. They remain blissfully unaware of the daily struggles of getting through our workdays. All they see are the dollar signs. I'm here to declare that I worked hard to get to where I am today and I deserve to be paid a decent wage for all of the services that I render. Instead of begrudging us, join us.

Further information to help readers decide...

 

[TheCommuter, BSN, RN]

I know what you are talking about! At my daughter's high school, she is ineligible for many services and a major college prep program, because one of her parents has a bachelor's degree (me).

I'm sorry your daughter was rendered ineligible due to your college education.

Since more than 70 percent of adults aged 25 or older are without a college degree in the US, I suspect these programs are aimed toward kids who have the potential to become first generation college graduates but are at risk or dropping out due to their parents' inability to give firsthand guidance.

I was a first generation college student and faced an uphill battle to get where I am today due to lack of support from my parents combined with difficulty navigating the maze commonly known as higher education.

[PMFB-RN, RN]

Most nurses aren't going to make 100K+ w/o OT

*** Quite obviously. Nobody claimed most would. Most won't choose to do the things required to do so and if "most" did do them it would overload the places where that kind of money is made.

or a second job; it doesn't matter how competent they are unless they live in Cali or NYC, where the cost of living is quite high, and where commutes can be a killer.

Now, if you work certain travel agencies, especially during strike times you might--but you can bet there will be OT. Otherwise, usually the travel jobs that pay the highest are like in Alaska or the upper and outer reaches of North Dakota, and certain areas of Cali, as well as some specialized hard to fills.

*** Or in a nice medium sized midwestern city with reasonable cost of living.

[Guest343211]

*** Quite obviously. Nobody claimed most would. Most won't choose to do the things required to do so and if "most" did do them it would overload the places where that kind of money is made.

*** Or in a nice medium sized midwestern city with reasonable cost of living.

Well, to go back to what Eroc was referencing, which I am not sure he sees yet. He might, but I'm not sure. (As my mother always said in terms of raising children, "There's theory, and then there is children--that is, reality." Same thing applies with nursing. There's theory, and then there is nursing--and it's reality.

Hopefully with his desire for advanced education, he will be part of the solution for addressing the problem I see, and that is this. It is very hard to accurately quantify nursing functions and continued excellence is the same way as for other types of work, especially b/c there isn't a direct correlation between earned or increased revenue and nursing functions.

There some work on this, but it's still not put into quantitative terms, such that the work nurses do, almost continually and conscientiously, day in and day out, in many centers is counted as quantifiable gains for the hospitals' bottom line numbers.

So even if they employ more objective measures for evaluating nurses for merit raises and advances, and even if they consistently, conscientiously, and fairly employ them, how will the metrics show gain for the hospitals' bottom line? How will will we quantify and qualify these functions such that they demonstrate an advancement of bottom line numbers?

This has long been an issue for nursing. Nursing is considered a major cost more than a specific gain in increased revenues. Aiken's study has made some points on this, and it has been talked about, and Magnet addresses it somewhat, but the bottom line is that medicine brings income into the facilities, while nursing functions are hard to quantify and are still perceived as a cost rather than a direct gain. And realistically, if nurses were to try to quantify every darn thing they did every day, and demonstrate how it made a difference, wow, no nurse would never get out of the hospital.

So it strikes me that this is part of the core problem with Eroc's position on going the extra mile and getting appropriate compensation for doing so in nursing--and his implying that nurses aren't doing that, thus they are not advancing or making reasonable gains for their years of work. Many nurses are doing this regularly, b/c it's their conviction and moral belief--and they serve in this way, under a lot of stress and ware and tare with little to no appropriate compensation in MOST places. Many nurses do this b/c this is what they believe in in terms of their practice. Sure some nurses don't do this, but let's look at nursing function across the board. I've worked in a great number of places. I'd say 50% or > were trying hard to go the extra mile and be effective. It's just that the slackers stand out.

Really, the thing is, the continuous flow of functions and tasks are difficult to compile on a regular and continuous basis, and they are difficult to quantify, as well as to prove in terms of being a direct benefit toward increase revenues from their functions. I think 20 + years in the field has showed this to my colleagues and me over and over again.

Eroc means well, and on the face of it, it makes sense, but it's not really the way things roll in nursing. Thus nurses are NOT compensated for their years of service, wherein they have gone above and beyond to provide safe, exceptional, compassionate, and effective care for their years of care to patients. I don't think he will see this until he is in the field for a good number of years. Shoot, managers that employ some kind of merit-based system rarely give better than average ratings, b/c it means increasing their budgets for compensation--and they are expected to keep that strict to what is given.

I hope we can change this. I am not so sure any approach to changing the view of nursing as being a drain on the controllers' bottom line, versus being a gain financially speaking, will really make much of a difference. It will only continue to get "lip service" from administration IMHO.

Proving number profits is the only thing that matters in the end from their perspective, and in the meantime, the cost of nursing payroll is still so great. Their attitude is that you should be going the extra mile b/c it's expected, and you should feel lucky you have a job. That's a blue collar kind of mentality--and not a professional, white collar mentality. Sure, ethically, I think going the extra mile is important for my patients. That's my underlying moral belief. But it's wrong not to compensate for this effectively over time--many years of service going above and beyond.

[lealind89]

Im sure what you make depends on where you live,,im in Taxachussetts i work for LTC facility my annual is approx 65,000(LPN).my rent is 1200,no car pay at this moment car ins 166 month 60 for cell 80 elect and 160 cable, food ,etc. you get the pic. and i support my daughter who is in college and a disabled spouse( who has been denied SSI and my co recently stopped with yearly raises ,cut out overtime and raised my ins contribution 110% 97 bi weekly to 217 biweekly its enough to make ends meat but it is a pay check to pay check living i only save what is taken out for my 401k..but I love my job been there 10 years...but some of you guys are right these administration cut corners and have facility understaff so that their end of year bonus is larger...but i make the best of it i keep a wish list on the fridge if i want or need some thing it goes on the list when taxes come in i seen if the want or need is still there....

[Rose_Queen, BSN, MSN, RN]

I think compared to the general population, nursing appears to get a decent salary. However, there are days that I just don't think we get paid enough to deal with everything we have to deal with- holding people's lives in our hands, putting ourselves at risk via needle sticks and the like, dealing with antagonistic patients and their families, working short, getting mandated, the list goes on. I won't argue that there aren't jobs that deserve high pay, but many of those with high pay don't experience what nurses experience. Sometimes I think we need hazard pay!

[Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN]

Well, to go back to what Eroc was referencing, which I am not sure he sees yet. He might, but I'm not sure. (As my mother always said in terms of raising children, "There's theory, and then there is children--that is, reality." Same thing applies with nursing. There's theory, and then there is nursing--and it's reality.

Hopefully with his desire for advanced education, he will be part of the solution for addressing the problem I see, and that is this. It is very hard to accurately quantify nursing functions and continued excellence is the same way as for other types of work, especially b/c there isn't a direct correlation between earned or increased revenue and nursing functions.

There some work on this, but it's still not put into quantitative terms, such that the work nurses do, almost continually and conscientiously, day in and day out, in many centers is counted as quantifiable gains for the hospitals' bottom line numbers.

So even if they employ more objective measures for evaluating nurses for merit raises and advances, and even if they consistently, conscientiously, and fairly employ them, how will the metrics show gain for the hospitals' bottom line? How will will we quantify and qualify these functions such that they demonstrate an advancement of bottom line numbers?

This has long been an issue for nursing. Nursing is considered a major cost more than a specific gain in increased revenues. Aiken's study has made some points on this, and it has been talked about, and Magnet addresses it somewhat, but the bottom line is that medicine brings income into the facilities, while nursing functions are hard to quantify and are still perceived as a cost rather than a direct gain. And realistically, if nurses were to try to quantify every darn thing they did every day, and demonstrate how it made a difference, wow, no nurse would never get out of the hospital.

So it strikes me that this is part of the core problem with Eroc's position on going the extra mile and getting appropriate compensation for doing so in nursing--and his implying that nurses aren't doing that, thus they are not advancing or making reasonable gains for their years of work. Many nurses are doing this regularly, b/c it's their conviction and moral belief--and they serve in this way, under a lot of stress and ware and tare with little to no appropriate compensation in MOST places. Many nurses do this b/c this is what they believe in in terms of their practice. Sure some nurses don't do this, but let's look at nursing function across the board. I've worked in a great number of places. I'd say 50% or > were trying hard to go the extra mile and be effective. It's just that the slackers stand out.

Really, the thing is, the continuous flow of functions and tasks are difficult to compile on a regular and continuous basis, and they are difficult to quantify, as well as to prove in terms of being a direct benefit toward increase revenues from their functions. I think 20 + years in the field has showed this to my colleagues and me over and over again.

Eroc means well, and on the face of it, it makes sense, but it's not really the way things roll in nursing. Thus nurses are NOT compensated for their years of service, wherein they have gone above and beyond to provide safe, exceptional, compassionate, and effective care for their years of care to patients. I don't think he will see this until he is in the field for a good number of years. Shoot, managers that employ some kind of merit-based system rarely give better than average ratings, b/c it means increasing their budgets for compensation--and they are expected to keep that strict to what is given.

I hope we can change this. I am not so sure any approach to changing the view of nursing as being a drain on the controllers' bottom line, versus being a gain financially speaking, will really make much of a difference. It will only continue to get "lip service" from administration IMHO.

Proving number profits is the only thing that matters in the end from their perspective, and in the meantime, the cost of nursing payroll is still so great. Their attitude is that you should be going the extra mile b/c it's expected, and you should feel lucky you have a job. That's a blue collar kind of mentality--and not a professional, white collar mentality. Sure, ethically, I think going the extra mile is important for my patients. That's my underlying moral belief. But it's wrong not to compensate for this effectively over time--many years of service going above and beyond.

I couldn't agree more.....but if states like Washington get away with allowing non licensed personnel, MA's. at the bedside to perform a licensed nurses task...you will see us devalued even more. It's a frightening scenario.....https://allnurses.com/general-nursing-discussion/washington-state-make-799880.html#post7050608

[eroc]

Well, to go back to what Eroc was referencing, which I am not sure he sees yet. He might, but I'm not sure. (As my mother always said in terms of raising children, "There's theory, and then there is children--that is, reality." Same thing applies with nursing. There's theory, and then there is nursing--and it's reality.

Hopefully with his desire for advanced education, he will be part of the solution for addressing the problem I see, and that is this. It is very hard to accurately quantify nursing functions and continued excellence is the same way as for other types of work, especially b/c there isn't a direct correlation between earned or increased revenue and nursing functions.

There some work on this, but it's still not put into quantitative terms, such that the work nurses do, almost continually and conscientiously, day in and day out, in many centers is counted as quantifiable gains for the hospitals' bottom line numbers.

So even if they employ more objective measures for evaluating nurses for merit raises and advances, and even if they consistently, conscientiously, and fairly employ them, how will the metrics show gain for the hospitals' bottom line? How will will we quantify and qualify these functions such that they demonstrate an advancement of bottom line numbers?

This has long been an issue for nursing. Nursing is considered a major cost more than a specific gain in increased revenues. Aiken's study has made some points on this, and it has been talked about, and Magnet addresses it somewhat, but the bottom line is that medicine brings income into the facilities, while nursing functions are hard to quantify and are still perceived as a cost rather than a direct gain. And realistically, if nurses were to try to quantify every darn thing they did every day, and demonstrate how it made a difference, wow, no nurse would never get out of the hospital.

So it strikes me that this is part of the core problem with Eroc's position on going the extra mile and getting appropriate compensation for doing so in nursing--and his implying that nurses aren't doing that, thus they are not advancing or making reasonable gains for their years of work. Many nurses are doing this regularly, b/c it's their conviction and moral belief--and they serve in this way, under a lot of stress and ware and tare with little to no appropriate compensation in MOST places. Many nurses do this b/c this is what they believe in in terms of their practice. Sure some nurses don't do this, but let's look at nursing function across the board. I've worked in a great number of places. I'd say 50% or > were trying hard to go the extra mile and be effective. It's just that the slackers stand out.

Really, the thing is, the continuous flow of functions and tasks are difficult to compile on a regular and continuous basis, and they are difficult to quantify, as well as to prove in terms of being a direct benefit toward increase revenues from their functions. I think 20 + years in the field has showed this to my colleagues and me over and over again.

Eroc means well, and on the face of it, it makes sense, but it's not really the way things roll in nursing. Thus nurses are NOT compensated for their years of service, wherein they have gone above and beyond to provide safe, exceptional, compassionate, and effective care for their years of care to patients. I don't think he will see this until he is in the field for a good number of years. Shoot, managers that employ some kind of merit-based system rarely give better than average ratings, b/c it means increasing their budgets for compensation--and they are expected to keep that strict to what is given.

I hope we can change this. I am not so sure any approach to changing the view of nursing as being a drain on the controllers' bottom line, versus being a gain financially speaking, will really make much of a difference. It will only continue to get "lip service" from administration IMHO.

Proving number profits is the only thing that matters in the end from their perspective, and in the meantime, the cost of nursing payroll is still so great. Their attitude is that you should be going the extra mile b/c it's expected, and you should feel lucky you have a job. That's a blue collar kind of mentality--and not a professional, white collar mentality. Sure, ethically, I think going the extra mile is important for my patients. That's my underlying moral belief. But it's wrong not to compensate for this effectively over time--many years of service going above and beyond.

Here we go again....

Eroc probably has more expereince in the business side of things, than you will compehend.

I understand as a floor nurse I what limitations are there, I also understand what it's like to promote people, and fire people. At 23years old I had over 500K invested in my first business, all though my on doing, nothing was given to me. And learned a vast amount in the 15+ years since then. It's as if you think your talking to child with "big dream's"... lmao. I've heard the same lines you have stated over and over throughout the years. Your thought are not uncommon in ANY field.

I am very comfortable outperforming everyone I am surrounded by. I chose Nursing.... as my starting salary will be less the my last endeavor. It's more like a personal goal to prove to myself how easy it is to get a college education...and Nursing is something I have been interested in for a while now, as I as very interested in the body (That is me in my avatar) ,and like helping people that can't help themselves.

I understand that might not be what you wanted to believe, but I understand Business first and foremost. So while this will be a career, it is not something I was forced to do.....honestly some people just look for more challenges in life.

I have a vast knowledge of many different aspects of life, and how to work around them....as I have done in everything I have ever set out to do. So yes, Eroc understands what you trying to accomplsh. Eroc will be a much better Manager or DON than he will be a floor nurse....because after running the enitire show, managing over 40+ people at a time, he knows what he is good at.... because of his experience.

I truely understand everyone can't be a top earner, or even lead people. Only a few can or will

While you have continued to try talk down to me...and which you deserve to, IF we are talking about skilled nursing practice.... but we are not talking about skilled nursing practice. We have been debating the same things that go on in EVERY career field. I have refrained from blasting you, like I am capable of, out of respect. (and knowing this is the intenet)

I know I will only have a few "backers" or people that agree with me. That makes perfect sense to me. My last Professor in school had made it to the PhD level just to prove it to herself...but before that, she was a DON for 20 years, and was very successful at it. We had many talks where we saw things exactly the same way when it came to the business side of nursing. Because we both had EXPERIENCE with running a business.

Once again I will back down from you if you want to talk skilled nursing...that is something I will show you more respect in.

I honestly believe people that want to succeed, just don't know the vastly different ways to do so. (I actually love that..because it makes it easier on me) Let me give you best tip I can, don't ask yourself "what would my collegues do to succeed?"...think to yourself "what is it no one else doing that would add overall value to myself?" You simple statement of 'Eroc saying that me and my collegues don't go above and beyond' clearly shows me you are not compending what I'm trying tell you...if you and you other collegues are all going above and beyond...then you are average amougst your peers.

I hope you comprehend....as I have move passed your thinking long ago.

[DoGoodThenGo]

Well, to go back to what Eroc was referencing, which I am not sure he sees yet. He might, but I'm not sure. (As my mother always said in terms of raising children, "There's theory, and then there is children--that is, reality." Same thing applies with nursing. There's theory, and then there is nursing--and it's reality.

Hopefully with his desire for advanced education, he will be part of the solution for addressing the problem I see, and that is this. It is very hard to accurately quantify nursing functions and continued excellence is the same way as for other types of work, especially b/c there isn't a direct correlation between earned or increased revenue and nursing functions.

There some work on this, but it's still not put into quantitative terms, such that the work nurses do, almost continually and conscientiously, day in and day out, in many centers is counted as quantifiable gains for the hospitals' bottom line numbers.

So even if they employ more objective measures for evaluating nurses for merit raises and advances, and even if they consistently, conscientiously, and fairly employ them, how will the metrics show gain for the hospitals' bottom line? How will will we quantify and qualify these functions such that they demonstrate an advancement of bottom line numbers?

This has long been an issue for nursing. Nursing is considered a major cost more than a specific gain in increased revenues. Aiken's study has made some points on this, and it has been talked about, and Magnet addresses it somewhat, but the bottom line is that medicine brings income into the facilities, while nursing functions are hard to quantify and are still perceived as a cost rather than a direct gain. And realistically, if nurses were to try to quantify every darn thing they did every day, and demonstrate how it made a difference, wow, no nurse would never get out of the hospital.

So it strikes me that this is part of the core problem with Eroc's position on going the extra mile and getting appropriate compensation for doing so in nursing--and his implying that nurses aren't doing that, thus they are not advancing or making reasonable gains for their years of work. Many nurses are doing this regularly, b/c it's their conviction and moral belief--and they serve in this way, under a lot of stress and ware and tare with little to no appropriate compensation in MOST places. Many nurses do this b/c this is what they believe in in terms of their practice. Sure some nurses don't do this, but let's look at nursing function across the board. I've worked in a great number of places. I'd say 50% or > were trying hard to go the extra mile and be effective. It's just that the slackers stand out.

Really, the thing is, the continuous flow of functions and tasks are difficult to compile on a regular and continuous basis, and they are difficult to quantify, as well as to prove in terms of being a direct benefit toward increase revenues from their functions. I think 20 + years in the field has showed this to my colleagues and me over and over again.

Eroc means well, and on the face of it, it makes sense, but it's not really the way things roll in nursing. Thus nurses are NOT compensated for their years of service, wherein they have gone above and beyond to provide safe, exceptional, compassionate, and effective care for their years of care to patients. I don't think he will see this until he is in the field for a good number of years. Shoot, managers that employ some kind of merit-based system rarely give better than average ratings, b/c it means increasing their budgets for compensation--and they are expected to keep that strict to what is given.

I hope we can change this. I am not so sure any approach to changing the view of nursing as being a drain on the controllers' bottom line, versus being a gain financially speaking, will really make much of a difference. It will only continue to get "lip service" from administration IMHO.

Proving number profits is the only thing that matters in the end from their perspective, and in the meantime, the cost of nursing payroll is still so great. Their attitude is that you should be going the extra mile b/c it's expected, and you should feel lucky you have a job. That's a blue collar kind of mentality--and not a professional, white collar mentality. Sure, ethically, I think going the extra mile is important for my patients. That's my underlying moral belief. But it's wrong not to compensate for this effectively over time--many years of service going above and beyond.

Ecellent!

By any measure of scientic methods if nursing service wished to be billed as a stand alone charge on a facility billing statement it would be difficult if not impossible. Even greater today and in future as more proceedures/treatments and so forth are being done by UAPs instead of RNs or LPNs.

Nursing care is billed as part of bed and board for inpatient care for many reasons and one assumes top of that list is the ease a hospital or LTC has in assigning who performs what long as it is within the scope of practice defined by various federal and local laws.

While it sounds good on paper in practice billing directly for nursing services opens up a huge can of worms. Would "skilled nursing care" fall only to RNs? RNs and LPNs? Do you bill "professional nursing care" as provided by RNs only leaving LPNs and UAPs out?

[Guest343211]

Here we go again....

Eroc probably has more expereince in the business side of things, than you will compehend.

I understand as a floor nurse I what limitations are there, I also understand what it's like to promote people, and fire people. At 23years old I had over 500K invested in my first business, all though my on doing, nothing was given to me. And learned a vast amount in the 15+ years since then. It's as if you think your talking to child with "big dream's"... lmao. I've heard the same lines you have stated over and over throughout the years. Your thought are not uncommon in ANY field.

I am very comfortable outperforming everyone I am surrounded by. I chose Nursing.... as my starting salary will be less the my last endeavor. It's more like a personal goal to prove to myself how easy it is to get a college education...and Nursing is something I have been interested in for a while now, as I as very interested in the body (That is me in my avatar) ,and like helping people that can't help themselves.

I understand that might not be what you wanted to believe, but I understand Business first and foremost. So while this will be a career, it is not something I was forced to do.....honestly some people just look for more challenges in life.

I have a vast knowledge of many different aspects of life, and how to work around them....as I have done in everything I have ever set out to do. So yes, Eroc understands what you trying to accomplsh. Eroc will be a much better Manager or DON than he will be a floor nurse....because after running the enitire show, managing over 40+ people at a time, he knows what he is good at.... because of his experience.

I truely understand everyone can't be a top earner, or even lead people. Only a few can or will

While you have continued to try talk down to me...and which you deserve to, IF we are talking about skilled nursing practice.... but we are not talking about skilled nursing practice. We have been debating the same things that go on in EVERY career field. I have refrained from blasting you, like I am capable of, out of respect. (and knowing this is the intenet)

I know I will only have a few "backers" or people that agree with me. That makes perfect sense to me. My last Professor in school had made it to the PhD level just to prove it to herself...but before that, she was a DON for 20 years, and was very successful at it. We had many talks where we saw things exactly the same way when it came to the business side of nursing. Because we both had EXPERIENCE with running a business.

Once again I will back down from you if you want to talk skilled nursing...that is something I will show you more respect in.

I honestly believe people that want to succeed, just don't know the vastly different ways to do so. (I actually love that..because it makes it easier on me) Let me give you best tip I can, don't ask yourself "what would my collegues do to succeed?"...think to yourself "what is it no one else doing that would add overall value to myself?" You simple statement of 'Eroc saying that me and my collegues don't go above and beyond' clearly shows me you are not compending what I'm trying tell you...if you and you other collegues are all going above and beyond...then you are average amougst your peers.

I hope you comprehend....as I have move passed your thinking long ago.

----------------------------------------|

No offense Eroc, but you are really starting to scare me. Weird. Why continue to take things so personally? What I am saying--why I even used your name--was in reference to some things you had previously stated. Why you choose to see that in a negative, "talk-down" way, is on you.

Nonetheless, my points have zero to do with YOU PERSONALLY OR HOW WELL you think you can perform.

They have to do with quantifying nursing functions in such as manner as YOU SEEM to BELIEVE happens. People in nursing may or may not get promoted or given increases in salary based on excellence in practice and things you speak of--as if any of that was anything new.

It doesn't roll the way you are used to thinking. It doesn't roll the same way as whatever business you had.

Nurses aren't considered the ones that bring in the bucks to the hospital. They are considered an expenditure rather that as a profit or directly related to proceeds. The hospital does NOT directly make a profit based on what they do in the same quantifiable sense as most other kinds of business. Do effective and excellent nurses make a difference? Can they make a difference for a hospital and how it is rated? Yes! That fact, however, has yet to get back in terms of monetary compensation to nursing. The gains from excellent nursing practice is difficult if not impossible in many ways to quantify.

Darn. Please, chill, and discuss the issue as it is related to nursing, and stop taking crap personally. I was responding to your perceptions/projections about nursing--based on what you have repeatedly stated. I meant nothing personal. Are you serious with that? Nevertheless, you implication implied repeatedly that apparently a lot of nurses don't go above and beyond in their work, thus they get crap for increases over time.

Sigh. Step back and think about it. If you would like, I will ask a moderator to take any reference to you out of my previous post; b/c you seemed to have missed the main point by focusing on YOU. Seriously, it wasn't about you, period. Sorry for the confusion on that.

The issues I raised was on quantifying what nurses do, and how they grow in what they do, and how that translates to value, which could then somehow be means for compensation. Oy and vey.

Nurses aren't bringing in quantifiable widgets. What nurses do, each minute to hour of each day or night involves a process, whereby and for which, even as they excel in performing the process, they do not, over time, get fair "leveling" up of monetary compensation. When hospitals do have nurse levels; they often make the leveling up process all about really capricious politics, and they go out of their way to limit the upper levels--even then, often the pay isn't much better for increased expertise, committee work, years, teaching/precepting, or the amount of times you are given charge nurse responsibility. Excellent nurses end up refusing charge b/c of the way things functions. They are slackers that don't know how to show added value. They are people that have been burned once to many times by the sub-professional management and administration of nursing. And why does that kind of handling exist? B/c bottom line, nursing is still considered to be a huge expenditure and not a true discipline/profession of added value to an organization. They speak these words, but you will be hard pressed to find many organizations putting their money where their mouth is in this regard. One specialty hospital I worked in did this. You didn't make a starting pay like nurses starting at other hospitals did; but the leveling process was not in anyway limited or blocked. But this was a non-profit specialty hospital. In fact, it ran, in many ways, like the military; but there was room for growth, and they had probably the most objective prognostic indicators of evaluation and progress I have ever seen ANYWHERE. This one hospital in a major metropolitan tri-state area, and I have worked at many hospitals within the area and have close affiliations with many a colleague who has worked as much if not more--as well as many travel nurses.

The key is to change the mentality of nursing from it being view as a blue-collar position to a true profession; and that means baseline, undergrad and up education. On top of that, people in nursing need to get wise and demand, yes, I said demand, even in this economic climate (and mind you, I am quite Conservative in many ways)--demand that the science of objective evaluation be employed in nursing consistently and ethically, w/o favor, across the board. The key is to keep the prognostic indicators and systems of evaluation as objective as humanly possible, and to continually be improving upon objective metrics in this regard.

Finally, nursing must look to find objective measures for quantifying added value in function. People have been trying to do this for decades and decades and decades and decades in nursing. It's very hard to do, and people become discouraged working the process.

No offense Eroc, but the more you respond, the more I become certain you don't understand what the art and science of nursing is about. I don't care at this point if you feel like that is talking "down" to you. Nurses ADD value all the time--hour and hour--day and night in and out, and they get little in terms of long-term compensation. After a while some get burned out and stay in it to survive, whilst others continue to have a continued compassion and focus on the patients and families. They are true heroes, and while administration gives them a mere card and perhaps a free pretzel for nurse's day each year, their patients know they when far above and beyond--and deep in these nurses' guts THEY KNOW they far above and beyond--whether it gets recognized or not, and often it does not. Of course there are those nurses that know how to play the game and be seen only in the prettiest light around mgt and nurse administration. A good number of those are backstabbers in order to get ahead too. I'm so sickened by even talking about the shameless antics I've seen in nursing. Perhaps part of the reason this may occur more than rarely is that nurses in general aren't regularly appreciated and compensated for going the extra mile for their patients and families, etc. Many of us have ALWAYS put our patients first. Guess what? Admin/mgt doesn't care unless it adds to their bottom line, and when it seems costly to do things right or pluperfect FOR THE SAKE OF THE PATIENTS, they avoid it or flat out deny doing such--the nurses with a mentality to go beyond are far from always considered valuable for putting their patients first.

You've got one thing right. I do know what I am talking about, and I have seen it more times than you can fathom. The ethical/moral nurse becomes sickened and more over it. The less than ethical/moral nurse rationalizes the behavior, and/or decides, "It I can't beat em, join em," and thus gets the "every nurse for her/himself" mentality. Either that or they become so jaded from it, they end up seeing nursing as "only a job" that pays their bills. And that, Eroc, is very, very sad.

And I can vouch for having worked with and under managers and administrators that did/do understand what the art and science of nursing is as well. Too many sadly DO NOT and never will. IMHO, we don't need more managers/administrators like the latter.

For decades I've seen these folks with advanced degrees or attached business degrees, and really they still never got a clue what nursing needs to be about, and administration was glad for it; b/c they really didn't want people in the role of manager that could relate to the nurses or to the patients for that matter--Only when it gets some attention--negative or positive, and it could reflect negatively or positively on their potential promotions. EYUCK! The bottom line mentality has and is killing nursing.

[BostonTerrierLover, BSN, RN]

When you guys quote each other, I think that broke a record for allnurses.com:)

My Unit that I contract on will not pay overtime now unless it goes over 80 hours in one week(Bi-weekly pay period).

This means that you can do 4 twelves one week(+) without OT, and the next week you are ranked by OT for cancellation. I hate how some place can change so quick from a great place to work, to a profit driven mess:(

I can only be canceled once per Pay Period, but the Scrooges found a loophole in my scheduling charge codes last week, and now are calling me in for 4 hour "cover" shifts.

When I came here they bragged that I could sign-up for OT days, but it usually never gets printed- lol, guess it was the truth- they only said I could "sign-up," not that I would ever get the extra shift. Nurse Recruiters are beginning to act like Used Car salespeople:)

I've learned to get everything in writing, but now you got to make sure "It is what it is."

There is some justice. The new staffing company cancels me constantly, and I still get paid. I told them 3 times (only two women in the staffing room that I get paid regardless after one cancellation). So, unless the ED requests me by name, and they call back- I get a PDO! Funny:)

To make it hilarious, when they call back after canceling(90%), after I've notified my agency- It's "call-pay." I think these guys were Government Accountants prior to this job. I have never made more for less, and worked less for more.

I brought it to the attention of a Nursing Supervisor who said,"I've told them twice in planning for this Change- now I'm done- their still saving overall- so enjoy it. Glad you like it here in our ED."

I feel really sorry for these staff nurses, Agency is raking it in here, if they are non-cancel by contract- but, since most are from a local staffing agency, that's what they base their decision on I guess.

[DoeRN]

You won't see this a lot in the hospital setting. Maybe in LTC, but not in hospitals.

I have a relative who is a director at a top 10 hospital and she has an ASN. And my old boss at the top 10 hospital I worked at has an ASN. So no it can happen in the hospital setting too.

I have more examples but those stick out the most.

[TheCommuter, BSN, RN]

I stopped at a local Subway restaurant prior to going to work yesterday evening. The 'sandwich artist,' a young man in his late teens or early twenties, asks me, "Are you getting off work?"

"I'm on my way to work," I answered.

"Are you a nurse?" he asked. "I see you're wearing those scrubs."

"Yes," I said.

"Are you an RN?" he further inquired.

"Yes," I responded.

"Oh!" he smiled. "I'm planning to study nursing! I bet you like making that thirty bucks an hour!"

"It's not too bad," I admitted.

That's not my actual pay rate (of course), but the young man didn't need to know the specifics of my compensation anyway.