Do Chiropractors Hires Nurses?

apocatastasis · Aug 12, 2011

If you disagree, when you have an MI, let's skip cath lab and send you to some sleazy pseudo-scientific crook so he can crack your bones.

prinsessa · Aug 12, 2011

Wow. Maybe most Chiropractors didn't become MDs because they didn't want to....not because they couldn't. Do you think the same of all nurses? I agree that some Chiros are quacks but so are some MDs.

Bree124, BSN, RN · Aug 12, 2011

Yeah, it's because they couldn't GET into medical school and don't let them tell you anything different!

Right, the exact same reason you are a nurse and not a physician, right?

Get a clue.

robbnp22 · Aug 12, 2011

hey apocatastasis...yes, you ARE infact quite IGNORANT....and the only thing B-O-G-U-S right now is your rhetoric and weakly baseless bashing of a profession, not a"movement", that helps millions of people each year avoid surgery, avoid liver damage from chronic pain meds, limit lost work days and return to full pre-injury function to name a few examples....So what, you researched "quackwatch" and came to the conclusions that the entire "movement" is wrought with snake-oil salesmen? That my friend is PURE genius!! :jester: Maybe you should quote more than one source, or perhaps look into the MORON who started quackwatch himself and see how many times he has had his a** handed to him on a silver platter, in COURT, by Medical Experts who testifed on behalf of the chiropractic profession...Go ahead and try that and tell us if your one source still makes you feel fully valid to spout your garbage? While your doing so, research medication errors and overdoses, errors in surgery involving wrong limbs removed, cosmetic surgeries that ended in death, little kids who go to the minor med clinic and are killed by a gloriously perfect MEDICALLY TRAINED Provider who gave them too much anesthesia, for starters...Im willing to bet my License as a Chiroractor, an RN and very soon to be FNP that you'll find medicine has a greater number of errors as well as, unfortunately, as many unscrupulous doctors as chiropractic does....Im not saying this to justify anything a bogus or unscrupulous chiropractor does as ok, but recognize that your narrow minded thoughts do your own profession an injustice...Ive worked as an insurance case manager in 3 different states, Ive been a medic, a firefighter, a CNA, a telemetry tech, a unit clerk, a chiropractor and now an RN and almost FNP so Ive seen and live BOTH sides of the fence...There is no reason what so ever to say what I do as chiropractor isnt a significant part of healthcare that makes positive changes in peoples lives...its not BOGUS, its not placebo, its not snake oil....its just ALTERNATIVE....How can any of you say you beleive in PT, Acupuncture, Massage or Accupressure and not spinal manipulation? That makes zero sense? Can any of you explain acupuncture and how it works in the body?? Please, tell me what your knowledge is and whay its so believable....(oh yeah, I do acupuncture too...I forgot to add that )...Ponder this....chiropractic, regardless of what idiots are out there trying to "cure" with it or make you believe it can do, is nothing more than a method pf restoring biomechanical integrity to a joint whether it be the knee, shoulder, ankle or articular joints of the spine....it has very little if anything, to do with alignment....if we were all that "out of alignment", dont you think we'd be numb, tingly or even transiently paralyzed multiple times a week??? I mean really...ever felt the need to pop your knuckles?? Cmonnnn....some of you have, Im sure of it...feels better after you do it right? Bam, there ya go....you took a fixated, stuck, limited, whatever ya wanna call it articular joint, ya moved it, the capsule released some pressure and low and behold, it MOVES better!! :yeah:Then, your body's awesome feedback mechanisms, courtesy of afferent nerve flow and joint mechano-receptors, tells your noggin that the joint is moving again so it can stop telling you it hurts! simple eh? works every time...and to whomever believed that theory of relaxing the muscles and therefore "realigning" the vertebrae, please explain how that works, if my example makes any sense....if you had to pop your knuckles, who you massage the interossei muscles of your hand in hopes that it would relax your MCP joints and they would feel better? Im guessing not...I love massage, its an amazing treatment modality and the world needs to see it as a true form of healthcare, not an "elective form of pain control" but, I digress...what Im saying is, you can massage, stretch, relax, lengthen or whatever, a muscle week in and week out but if the joints those origins and insertions attach to are stuck, the muscle will go right back to its shortened, limited, restricted, protective mode it did before you got rubbed on, sadly, and therefore wont "realign or fix" anything until you fix the joint mechanics with it....bottom line ...A injured joint, fixated, will remain so until a force moves through it to release the pressure and restores its motion...this is as simple a theory as a blood clot, a bowel obstruction or a failed kindney..when fluid stops flowing, things breakdown!!...making more sense? Its not snake oil, its not quackery, its just DIFFERENT... and I'll challenge ANY chiropractor who wants to argue, that it DOESNT CURE ANYTHING...it just takes away or reduces that chaotic afferent input your brain is trying to deal with and makes the pain go away and the range of motion return....but it works! Please, open your mind up a little because I practice both on a regular basis, happily, safely and effectively and would appreciate it if you'd respect that as a colleague.

LuxCalidaNP · Aug 12, 2011

FOr the record, the guy who runs QuackWatch was outed as having faked a psych residency and never having practiced legitimate medicine...

robbnp22 · Aug 12, 2011

HearticultureRN...thank you, thats what makes me so mad about that ridiculous site...that fool was a bigger quack than anyone he ever presented on his site!

roser13 posted a reply to this post but it doesnt seem to be showing...did you delete it roser13?

SummitRN, BSN, RN · Aug 12, 2011

the underlying theory as espoused by the creator of chiropractic, daniel palmer, is that all maladies of the body comes from misalignment:

"a subluxated vertebra... is the cause of 95 percent of all diseases... the other five percent is caused by displaced joints other than those of the vertebral column." - daniel palmer

therefor all maladies can be cured by chiropractic adjustments. chiropractic was "revealed" to him by the spirit of a dead doctor from beyond the grave. he then started the a "chiropractic college" that he named after himself.

if chiro is real, then where are the reams of peer reviewed double blind studies to support it as more effective than a placebo? the entire basis of chiro is faith based healing. it's creator stated explicitly that faith and spirituality was a key part of chiropractic theory. chiro doesn't need evidence.

the lack of adherence to scientific principles is what allows chiros to choose to be anything from strict back crackers to cure-alls. why do they think they can cure autism? the creator of chiropractic even said "chiropractors correct abnormalities of the intellect as well as those of the body."

it's a bunch of hooey. read these two articles by chiropractors about chiropractic:

"take if from a dc" http://www.chirobase.org/01general/chirosham.html

"placebos nocebos and chiropractic" http://www.chirobase.org/01general/placebo.html

for the record, the guy who runs quackwatch was outed as having faked a psych residency and never having practiced legitimate medicine...

i thought that sounded surprising so i researched your claim. that is completely false information. dr. stephen barrett became an md in 1957, did a psych residency, and practiced medicine until 1993. i did find a few very vitriolic and negative pages that were negative press releases or summaries thereof from a chiropractor who had been trading lawsuits with barrett for a while. not even those sites made your claim. the claim they make is that he wasn't board certified, but any doc who had been in the business a long time will tell you: almost nobody bothered to do board certifications in psychiatry back in 1961.

ilove · Aug 12, 2011

They will not hire LPN's or RN's OR APRN"S. But they will hire medical assistants to do office work and height and weight stuff and most likely they will have one receptionist

robbnp22 · Aug 12, 2011

Summit,

Once again, nobody answers my requests on explaining massage or acupuncture, or homeopathy, or biofeedback or anything alternative for that matter...

There arent reams of paper in double blind studies for many reasons....our society is largely pharmaceutical and allopathically based, so who do you think has the money for an expensive double blind study?? There is new research every year that support chiro/physical medicine as a successful modality in the fight against back pain...it shouldnt take long to find them....There isnt a ton of research on acupuncture and massage either, but it works and its different and people trust it....how come nobody spends time writing about those two disciplines as "hooey"?? Just because you can find two articles but two radical docs that claim dumb stuff doesnt mean the whole profession is hooey...Yes, originally, chiropractic began as a faith based healing but do you think perhaps after 115 years of evolution that is might possibly be regarded as a more scientific method now?? If not, explain how an osteopathic manipulation or a PT doing a "mobilization" is any different? its not, not in any way shape or form, PERIOD. If that doesnt convince you, look up Tui Na...its acupunctures adjunct method of treatment using SPINAL MANIPULATION!!! Woohooo!! its not just us crazy faith healers....The Asian culture has been doing it for thousands of years!! Is their method sound but chiropractic isnt??

Can you comfortably sit there and say there arent thousands of useless, sham-ridden MD's who have lied to patients, convinced them to take a med they didnt need or undergo a procedure that was unnecessary or just plain believed they could cure everything? I know you can whether you say so or not...I'll even go so far as to say a large number of chiropractors are clueless as to what they can truly treat and also that there is likely a large portion of spinal manipulation that has a placebo affect because it probably does, but ya know what, so what it it does?? If it helps a patient have less pain, feel better, own their conditions and be healthy, then it works!! If a fat diabetic take a placebo oral hypoglycemic and exercises and watchers their diet and loses weight and her A1C drops, the placebo worked....so what!!

Again, all Im asking is that you nay sayers open your darn minds alittle and see something like this for the good it does, not for the few bad things some have proven because we all know theres way more bad in mainstream medicine than we want to admit....last, while the claim that chiropractic can cure things is what people seem to hate the most, and yeah, I agree, its BS and we ddont cure anything, keep in mind that even medications and surgery dont cure much either....they make a change in the body either chemically or physically and the body hopefully does the rest...right? So isnt ANYone who claims they cure things really BS'ing as well???

While youre doing research on "Dr" Barrett, perhaps you should include this type of information which seems to support my and HeartRN's claims quite well:

"Quackbusting" - is a Profitable Business...

Frankly, "quackbusting" is a profitable industry, and Stephen Barrett plays it to the hilt.

In a Canadian lawsuit (see below) Barrett admitted to the following:

"The sole purpose of the activities of Barrett & Baratz are to discredit and cause damage and harm to health care practitioners, businesses that make alternative health therapies or products available, and advocates of non-allopathic therapies and health freedom."

Stephen Barrett testifies for money. He claims he's an "expert" in virtually everything. Those "expert witness" fees seem to be a significant part of Barrett's existence.

In a California Court case, former Barrett peer, and fellow Board Member of the National Council Against Health Fraud (NCAHF), William Jarvis PhD, testified, under oath, that Stephen Barrett and Robert Baratz conspired to use the NCAHF, without Board permission, as a Plaintiff in over 40 cases in California, where Barrett and Baratz were to testify as "expert witnesses," and get expert witness fees. The NCAHF Board was never consulted.

However, sometimes their plans fail.

One of those cases caused the NCAHF to be saddled with over $100,000 in legal fees awarded their victim - and the NCAHF doesn't have the money to pay that debt. In fact, the NCAHF is SO DESPERATE for funds it is being run out of a cardboard box in the back room of Robert Baratz's Braintree, Massachusetts hair removal and ear piercing salon.

Those type of cases Barrett involved the NCAHF in were considered so heinous that the people of California just passed an initiative (Proposition #64) banning this kind of lawsuit for all time.

Barrett's claim to be a Consumer Advocate is an insult to American consumers. "

Organized Stupidity is the Hallmark of the Quackbuster Conspiracy...

Barrett, and his vacuous minions, like to spout off other stupid "rules" that they think should apply to health care - the application of which, has to make the scientific community shudder.

One of the other totally BRAINLESS statements Barrett, and his parrotts, like to to screech out is "It hasn't been double-blind studied!!"

The "double-blind study" is one of about 45 different kinds of scientific studies used, and approved for use, within the scientific community. It was designed for, and is usually restricted to, testing new dangerous drugs for the claims drug companies wish to make about their new laboratory produced products. Generally, in this type of study, you give half of the group the new pill, and the other half gets a sugar pill that looks just like the original. This type of study simply does not apply to new research. Never has, never will.

And worse, the "double-blind study" is considered to be heinous, and was banned by world government during the Helsinki Accord in 1964."

Heres a looong article from an MD about his opinions of Barrett...as if the Courts didnt make it perfectly clear he's a Quack and a Fraud himself...

http://www.raysahelian.com/quackwatch.html

"

SummitRN, BSN, RN · Aug 12, 2011

robbnp, I only made it through about 10% of your post. I cannot read that. Please try a double dose of punctuation and the return key. 30 or 40 sentence fragments strung together by ellipses into a giant wall of text is truly painful to decipher. I'll try to respond to your opening statements.

Once again, nobody answers my requests on explaining massage or acupuncture, or homeopathy, or biofeedback or anything alternative for that matter...

I not going to talk about acupuncture or massage because I haven't researched those. Further, practitioners of massage therapy are not telling people to avoid doctors because they can cure anything and everything; they are not discouraging clients from seeking medical help as is common amongst chiros. Chiros were absolutely massive supporters of the always-suspect and now-proven-fraudulent anti-vaccine movement.

I will say that homeopathy is nothing but pure fraud based on placebo. Understanding why requires only an elementary school education. If you need a simple explanation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWE1tH93G9U

There arent reams of paper in double blind studies for many reasons....our society is largely pharmaceutical and allopathically based, so who do you think has the money for an expensive double blind study??

If you think that there's no money in alternative healing, you are drinking the exact koolaid that alternative medicine is marketing. Chiropractic alone is a $10 BILLION dollar industry just for practitioners. Homeopathic remedies and unverified supplements are many many billions more than that a year.

The entire point of EBM is to cease doing treatments that are economically unsound, cause more harm vs good compared to more efficacious treatments, etc. If the basis of a treatment modality is faith and placebo, as it is for homeopathy, then why would you bother with research? It isn't a lack of funding problem.

Yes, originally, chiropractic began as a faith based healing but do you think perhaps after 115 years of evolution that is might possibly be regarded as a more scientific method now??

What is different now? The fundamental basis of chiropractic is unchanged. Where is the science?

The Asian culture has been doing it for thousands of years!! Is their method sound but chiropractic isnt??

Are you capable of honest debate? You make those claims, not me. That's the worst type of strawman. Further, the length of time a practice is in place doesn't validate it.

If something works, then it can be demonstrated. Western societies have been doing all sorts of whacky treatments for 1000s of years, some of them still in place. That doesn't make them automatically valid any more than the western emotional fascination with eastern treatments. Traditional Chinese Medicine believes killing bears for the bile in their gallbladders is a good idea because bear bile cures fevers. They've been doing it for thousands of years and still do it today. Valid practice?

You shouldn't care what society came up with the idea, only that it can be scientifically demonstrated to be good practice.

When I see chirpractic challenged, the defense is almost always deflection or comparison to other vaguely related forms of CAM. Other tactics are usually validation by attacking MDs. "Well Western Medicine is Bad" and therefore Chiro is good. What kind of logic is that? Nevermind that Chiro is Western.

Lastly, the doctor you've linked to who attacks Dr. Barrett is just another "self-proclaimed international nutrition guru" under fire for being a quack... no wonder he doesn't like Dr. Barrett.

diva rn, BSN, RN · Aug 13, 2011

So, robbnp22..just how many cases of autism did you cure??...or better yet, if Chiro is the "be all end all", why are you going for a FNP? and crossing over into that bug a boo "traditional" medicine? Can't cure it all with chiro after all?

LMT2BSN · Aug 13, 2011

hey apocatastasis...yes, you ARE infact quite IGNORANT....and the only thing B-O-G-U-S right now is your rhetoric and weakly baseless bashing of a profession, not a"movement", that helps millions of people each year avoid surgery, avoid liver damage from chronic pain meds, limit lost work days and return to full pre-injury function to name a few examples....So what, you researched "quackwatch" and came to the conclusions that the entire "movement" is wrought with snake-oil salesmen? That my friend is PURE genius!! Maybe you should quote more than one source, or perhaps look into the MORON who started quackwatch himself and see how many times he has had his a** handed to him on a silver platter, in COURT, by Medical Experts who testifed on behalf of the chiropractic profession...Go ahead and try that and tell us if your one source still makes you feel fully valid to spout your garbage? While your doing so, research medication errors and overdoses, errors in surgery involving wrong limbs removed, cosmetic surgeries that ended in death, little kids who go to the minor med clinic and are killed by a gloriously perfect MEDICALLY TRAINED Provider who gave them too much anesthesia, for starters...Im willing to bet my License as a Chiroractor, an RN and very soon to be FNP that you'll find medicine has a greater number of errors as well as, unfortunately, as many unscrupulous doctors as chiropractic does....Im not saying this to justify anything a bogus or unscrupulous chiropractor does as ok, but recognize that your narrow minded thoughts do your own profession an injustice...Ive worked as an insurance case manager in 3 different states, Ive been a medic, a firefighter, a CNA, a telemetry tech, a unit clerk, a chiropractor and now an RN and almost FNP so Ive seen and live BOTH sides of the fence...There is no reason what so ever to say what I do as chiropractor isnt a significant part of healthcare that makes positive changes in peoples lives...its not BOGUS, its not placebo, its not snake oil....its just ALTERNATIVE....How can any of you say you beleive in PT, Acupuncture, Massage or Accupressure and not spinal manipulation? That makes zero sense? Can any of you explain acupuncture and how it works in the body?? Please, tell me what your knowledge is and whay its so believable....(oh yeah, I do acupuncture too...I forgot to add that )...Ponder this....chiropractic, regardless of what idiots are out there trying to "cure" with it or make you believe it can do, is nothing more than a method pf restoring biomechanical integrity to a joint whether it be the knee, shoulder, ankle or articular joints of the spine....it has very little if anything, to do with alignment....if we were all that "out of alignment", dont you think we'd be numb, tingly or even transiently paralyzed multiple times a week??? I mean really...ever felt the need to pop your knuckles?? Cmonnnn....some of you have, Im sure of it...feels better after you do it right? Bam, there ya go....you took a fixated, stuck, limited, whatever ya wanna call it articular joint, ya moved it, the capsule released some pressure and low and behold, it MOVES better!! :yeah:Then, your body's awesome feedback mechanisms, courtesy of afferent nerve flow and joint mechano-receptors, tells your noggin that the joint is moving again so it can stop telling you it hurts! simple eh? works every time...and to whomever believed that theory of relaxing the muscles and therefore "realigning" the vertebrae, please explain how that works, if my example makes any sense....if you had to pop your knuckles, who you massage the interossei muscles of your hand in hopes that it would relax your MCP joints and they would feel better? Im guessing not...I love massage, its an amazing treatment modality and the world needs to see it as a true form of healthcare, not an "elective form of pain control" but, I digress...what Im saying is, you can massage, stretch, relax, lengthen or whatever, a muscle week in and week out but if the joints those origins and insertions attach to are stuck, the muscle will go right back to its shortened, limited, restricted, protective mode it did before you got rubbed on, sadly, and therefore wont "realign or fix" anything until you fix the joint mechanics with it....bottom line ...A injured joint, fixated, will remain so until a force moves through it to release the pressure and restores its motion...this is as simple a theory as a blood clot, a bowel obstruction or a failed kindney..when fluid stops flowing, things breakdown!!...making more sense? Its not snake oil, its not quackery, its just DIFFERENT... and I'll challenge ANY chiropractor who wants to argue, that it DOESNT CURE ANYTHING...it just takes away or reduces that chaotic afferent input your brain is trying to deal with and makes the pain go away and the range of motion return....but it works! Please, open your mind up a little because I practice both on a regular basis, happily, safely and effectively and would appreciate it if you'd respect that as a colleague.

Totally agree with much of what you say, but not entirely with the bottom line of massage only affecting muscle. While it's not in my scope of practice to directly adjust anybody, through myofascial work, much of the body can indirectly adjust itself when specific muscles are treated and placed in the right positions. However, some joints in the body I cannot adjust with this method and I refer to chiro's. So, I don't think it's fair that massage is viewed simply as a way to relax muscle and that's it. I view chiropractors as valuable to me as I am to them, and believe some pretty awesome and effective treatment plans can be created by using both sides.

And to whoever got upset that I insulted them by calling them ignorant. I am sorry, I was not trying to insult you. But ignorant is exactly what that statement was. To simply call Chiropractors quacks without support, is ignorant. I am not insulting you and have no intention do to so, however you are lacking knowledge on that subject. And when I mention "respectable" chiropractors I am referring to those who understand what can be realistically achieved within their scope of practice as mentioned in robbnp22's post above.