DNP vs PhD

PhDs are really intended to prepare independent researchers with the focus of the program on the theoretical and methodological demands of original research. It's a lot of work (averaging around 5 years full-time) to do just for prestige or to check something off a bucket list. Since you didn't mention anything about being interested in research (and rather suggested it might be a negative for you), I wouldn't suggest you pursue a PhD.

DNPs, on the other hand, is focused mostly on evidence-based practice and applying existing research to practice. Most people do them part-time and they often much shorter and less rigorous and intense. Some include opportunities to learn more business, policy, or informatics skills that might be applicable to practice. If you just want want to be able to call yourself Dr., then a DNP is, by far, a much better choice for you.

I second what @pro-student said. I'm in a PhD program right now, after having done a lot of soul searching and exploring to figure out what was the right path for me. I wish I had known a little bit more about what I was getting into, so I am going to share some very honest and candid thoughts, with the hope that this might be helpful for you (I am trying to share all the juicy details here and hope you won't be offended if you already know these things). Some nursing PhD students a few years ahead of me really helped me when I was exploring programs by answering all of my questions, telling me about their research, how to apply successfully, what a PhD program was like, etc., so I really want to give back and pay their kindness forward if I can.

The purpose of a PhD is to prepare nurses for research careers, so nursing PhD programs are going to be heavily research focused. Highly ranked and reputable PhD programs in particular are geared toward preparing students to be top nurse researchers at R1 institutions. There are some nursing PhD programs that focus on nursing education, but they will still involve research since a PhD is intended to be a research degree.

All of the coursework in a PhD program is geared toward research (statistics, research methods, nursing theory used to guide research questions, etc.). You will have to do a rigorous, independent research project that will be the basis of your dissertation. This is different than a DNP project; you have to do your own statistical analysis to answer your research questions (which need to fill a research gap that you've identified through intimate knowledge and understanding of the literature in your area) and write a dissertation, often in the format of 3 academic papers making up the main body, which you're typically expected to publish in scholarly journals. You may also have to do research residencies or mentored research with your advisor (this is a good thing because it helps prepare you to be an independent researcher, which is the goal of a PhD). Many programs also expect you to write grants to fund you, typically to the NIH (although there are other grant mechanisms), which is cool but not for the faint of heart.

If you're not passionate about research it would be brutal to get your PhD (I really enjoy research and I still think it's brutal -- there's so much pressure to be extremely productive in terms of publications, projects, grants, coursework, etc., and it can be difficult to find any semblance of work life balance). I am grateful to be in a program that's providing full funding (my school covers my tuition, health insurance, and a stipend, which for many programs is about $24,000 a year, in line with NIH). However, that's a lot less than I'd be making as a nurse, and I'm putting many more hours in! If you don't plan to use your PhD to do research, it may not be worth it in terms of what you have to go through to get your PhD as well as the pay cut for 3+ years (my program is 3-4 years full time). I also do not recommend any program that does not provide full funding -- it's typical for PhD programs to provide full funding, so if they aren't providing full funding that's not only an unnecessary financial burden for you, but it's an indication of how invested they are in their students. If they won't invest in their students financially, it's a sign that they may not be very invested in providing you the best education and experience and support that they can.

Finally, in order to be accepted into a PhD program, you'll need some type of research experience or something you can talk about that demonstrates an interest in research, such as experience as a member of a research team or authorship of scholarly publications (you can get a little bit creative with this, as long as you can demonstrate an interest in research and articulate why you're interested). You will need to write an essay about why you want a PhD in nursing (what they want to hear is that you're getting your PhD to become nursing faculty at a research intensive institution) as well as what area you want to study and how it fills a gap in the literature. You'll also need to identify faculty in the department that are a good fit with your research interests and weave this into your essay. The better you can tell a story about how your academic and professional experiences have culminated in your research interests and your desire for a PhD, the more likely you will get into a competitive program (acceptance rates of nursing PhD programs vary pretty widely, so it's good to really look into each program and what their admitted students are like; this will also give you an idea of whether the program is a good fit for your interests and professional goals). I would imagine that PhD programs would be very excited about a CRNA, especially if you can tell a good story about how your experiences have led to your current research interests and professional goals and why a PhD is necessary for you to achieve them.

There's a huge shortage of nurses with PhDs and it's only going to get bigger, so that means PhD nurses have a lot of options. The work is interesting, rewarding, and stimulating. Many people think that faculty salaries are low, but I disagree (nothing like a CRNA salary though, unless you're the dean of a prestigious school). However, the road to getting a PhD can be rough, and if you aren't passionate about research I don't see how it would be worth it. That said, you may find that you love research! I reached out to a faculty member at a school of public health to get involved in her research a year before I applied to programs. I would really encourage you to do the same if you can (especially if there's an opportunity to be an author on a publication!) It helped me to hone my research interests, learn new skills, and confirm that I do actually like research. It also probably helped me get into PhD programs.

Anyway, I hope that my long-winded ramblings have helped. I think a nursing PhD is a great choice, but it's not a decision to be taken lightly, so I think the more information you can get, the better you will be able to make the right choice for yourself. I wish you the best of luck, and if you have any questions for me, please reach out!

On 5/22/2020 at 3:36 PM, saheckler said:

Anyway, I hope that my long-winded ramblings have helped. I think a nursing PhD is a great choice, but it's not a decision to be taken lightly, so I think the more information you can get, the better you will be able to make the right choice for yourself. I wish you the best of luck, and if you have any questions for me, please reach out!

Thank you very much for the elaborate response. You have effectively dissuaded from me pursuing a PhD. The truth is I'm still a little jaded from CRNA school and your description exhausted me. I applied to my employers DNP program which is new, but has both a leadership and education focus and the school is highly ranked. A lot of people in the CRNA community choose to pursue a DNAP degree for more of an anesthesia focus, but I like how broad the DNP is should I ever choose to pursue administration or education with ability to teach people other than CRNAs.

Thanks again!

13 hours ago, ProgressiveThinking said:

Thank you very much for the elaborate response. You have effectively dissuaded from me pursuing a PhD. The truth is I'm still a little jaded from CRNA school and your description exhausted me. I applied to my employers DNP program which is new, but has both a leadership and education focus and the school is highly ranked. A lot of people in the CRNA community choose to pursue a DNAP degree for more of an anesthesia focus, but I like how broad the DNP is should I ever choose to pursue administration or education with ability to teach people other than CRNAs.

Thanks again!

I think that sounds like a great choice for you, based on what you've said in this thread. I wish you the best of luck! TBH, I don't blame you for thinking my description was exhausting -- the PhD is pretty exhausting! I don't regret entering the program, but if I could do things over again, I would strongly consider a master's in epidemiology instead.

I am in my last semester of my PhD in nursing. It was required for my current position. I have a couple of friends that went the DNP route and were done a year earlier than me. There are so many different programs now it depends what your end goal is. In hindsight, I would go the DNP route but even just four years ago I couldn't find a program that was friendly on clinical hours and I have a large family so I couldn't see at the time how to make it work. The PhD is definitely rigorous and I have cried more than I thought, but I am doing my research right now and I can see the end. I can't say I would recommend it, but if you say your want more and are ready you will probably do well. My issues was juggling a large family, two surgeries, a couple of deaths, and becoming a sandwich generation during these last four years, while working full time, so I think my situation is unique.

I plan to do more research and I do enjoy that process to move nursing forward. Good luck!

I pursued the DNP for several reasons but the 2 main reasons:

1) I wanted to be able to teach in an MSN program and all programs that I looked in to require a terminal degree. I currently teach in a RN program.

2) While pursuing my MSN I worked on several lit review-type projects and I loved reading the research results which had been confirmed by other researchers. And yet it didn't matter how many articles I read that confirmed best practice, I never saw the policies in place in the 4 facilities I worked in. It was so frustrating to see 4 different policies/procedures that weren't reflective of current nursing research. So all those PhDs were producing excellent research that was seldom translated into practice. So I decided to try to do that.

On 6/7/2020 at 10:14 PM, InSchool4eva20 said:

 and becoming a sandwich generation during these last four years 

Aren't we all going to be sandwiched at some point?

On 5/18/2020 at 6:13 PM, pro-student said:

If you just want want to be able to call yourself Dr., then a DNP is, by far, a much better choice for you.

Any sane person will say this should never be the reason get a doctorate... and the OP referred to 'clout' which again is like *eyeroll* ... the purpose of a degree is to prepare you to do something.

What would help is probably looking at a curriculum for some programs. I just finished my DNP at a reputable private school and I couldn't be happier. Made a lot of connections, networked, and I feel I am ready for the most part to do my job. I wanted to be a mental health provider, which is different from anesthesia. But the concepts with these degrees are pretty much the same.

I recently looked at a PhD in neuroscience curriculum, because I'm interested in the subject and providing better care for people and learning about the brain. It looks like nearly every course is research and writing papers, which I just did plenty of in my DNP program... It is so funny how people seem to wanna split practice from research, but in reality you should be incorporating both, regardless of what degree you are doing and especially if you are a provider of some kind.

Sadly getting a PhD wouldn't really help me in anyway, except to provide structured learning which I like doing on my own. I love learning about psychiatry but I feel like I can really do it on my own now as in the DNP program you learn a lot about grading and interpreting research.

I feel like the DNP is a great path especially for NEW providers, it incorporates both research and practice. It would just be nice to start clinic earlier and have more hours so that we would get more respect from other professions that put more time in.

I didn't do it for clout or bc I want someone to call me doctor. I did it because I wanted to learn advanced nursing, have increased responsibility and to get out of inpatient nursing. You can always teach and participate in research regardless of whether you have a PhD or DNP.

Hello Progressivethinking, 

  I came across a lot of your posts here and knowing you're a CRNA in Northern California. I am currently working in ICU and considering applying to CRNA school. I've been having a hard time finding someone to shadow. I am wondering is there any opportunity to shadow you? Thank you 

Graduating with my DNP tomorrow!

Biggest take-away and easiest way to understand both degrees.

PhD- Researchers (actively creates and publishes research), Prepared for Academic Settings, 4+years even after Master's, established terminal degree

DNP- Evidence-Based Practice Implementers (takes research findings and puts it into practice), Prepared for Clinical Settings, ~2years Post-Masters, relatively newer (~10years) 

I have seen both interchangeably in academic and clinical settings. Meaning I have seen PhDs in the clinical settings and DNPs in academic settings, especially teaching in specialities. I have worked with PhD prepared NPs and currently work with DNP prepared instructors. The PhD NPs said they went PhD route, because DNP was not around or was too new. 

Again, this is a VERY simple explanation, but probably the easiest to understand. 

23 hours ago, Whull1 said:

I have seen both interchangeably in academic and clinical settings.

It's because any doctoral degree can teach (Optometrist, MD, PharmD, DPT, etc) or do research and a license to practice advanced nursing is separate from the degree. 

On 5/24/2020 at 6:04 PM, saheckler said:

I think that sounds like a great choice for you, based on what you've said in this thread. I wish you the best of luck! TBH, I don't blame you for thinking my description was exhausting -- the PhD is pretty exhausting! I don't regret entering the program, but if I could do things over again, I would strongly consider a master's in epidemiology instead.

Hi, thanks for your elaborate response on this thread. Kindly pardon me as I have a question. I am currently applying to UCI in Irvine and they require I complete a STAT 7 or STAT 8 course as part of my PHD application. I am an international nurse from Ireland and have absolutely no idea how to register for it. I have also emailed the school but their response was too vague and unhelpful. Any chance you could kindly explain to me please? Thanks 

18 minutes ago, Dinma said:

Hi, thanks for your elaborate response on this thread. Kindly pardon me as I have a question. I am currently applying to UCI in Irvine and they require I complete a STAT 7 or STAT 8 course as part of my PHD application. I am an international nurse from Ireland and have absolutely no idea how to register for it. I have also emailed the school but their response was too vague and unhelpful. Any chance you could kindly explain to me please? Thanks 

Hi Dinma,

I double checked the UC Irvine website PhD application requirements and here's what I found: 

An undergraduate or graduate statistics course that will cover or did cover descriptive and inferential statistics.

• This statistics course must have been completed within 5 years of starting the program with a grade of B or higher. Courses must be taken for a letter grade – credit/no credit and pass/not pass courses will not be considered.
• If it has been longer than 5 years, this course can be taken online or in-person at a community college, a university/college, or university extension.
• If you are on the cusp of the 5 year deadline, we strongly encourage you to retake statistics during the Summer before starting the program.
• Applicants are required to upload a signed copy of the Statistics Acknowledgement form in the UC Irvine Graduate Application.

Have you taken a stats course that covers descriptive and inferential statistics within the last 5 years? It sounds like you can still apply if you haven't fulfilled the above requirements, and if that's the case, then here are the instructions I found:

If you have not completed this requirement at the time of applying, please review the information below:

• If it has been longer than 5 years, this course can be taken online or in-person at a regionally accredited community college, university/college, or university extension.
• You may take this course during the Summer before starting the program; however, you will be required to send a copy of your final course transcript reflecting your final grade to UC Irvine’s Graduate Student Affairs Office by the start of the Fall term.
• You are responsible for enrolling in the course by the appropriate deadlines.
• If you fail to complete this requirement by the start of the Quarter, you will not be permitted to continue in the program. Exceptions to this policy will not be granted.

So, it sounds like you can find any local or online course as long as you make sure beforehand that they cover descriptive and inferential statistics. Some options for online courses are Southern New Hampshire University, UC Berkeley extension, Arizona State University, University of Phoenix, Kaplan, Purdue Global, and plenty of others out there. Personally, I prefer not for profit universities (Univ of Phoenix, Kaplan, and Purdue Global are for profit; the first 3 I listed are not, as far as I know). They should all have course listings and information on how to register on their websites. I had to take an online health policy prerequisite (which I did through Purdue Global) and it was pretty simple. However, I didn't have a great experience with the class itself -- it was easy (I.e., we didn't learn much) and the professor was unprofessional, inappropriate, and didn't actually teach or lecture -- he just assigned textbook readings and discussion posts and that was it. 

Hope this helps! Best of luck with your application.