DNP vs EdD

[HOPEforRNs, ADN, BSN, MSN]

I have my BSN from the same top 5 nursing program where I have taught for the past 5 years. My MSN (nursing education) is from Capella University. My job is pushing me hard to get a terminal degree. I'm not eligible for most DNP programs nor do they make sense since I am not an advanced practice nurse nor do I desire to be. There are a few CCNE accredited DNP programs that would allow me to complete the program but I would need 900 clinical hours and it would be quite expensive. American Sentinel University has a DNP nurse educator and due to their ACEN accreditation, the hours would drop to 600. I got accepted and got full NFLP funding. But I worry about getting another degree from an online "diploma mill" style school. And I am still hesitant about the DNP since the degree was designed for advanced practice nurses, not educators.

I recently discovered that Columbia University has an EdD specifically in nursing education. It is a long and intense program that seems to be closer aligned to a PhD. However, I would be specifically prepared as a nurse educator at the doctoral level, not a nurse scientist like with a PhD. It seems perfect, although I'm not thrilled about all the extra time / effort vs the DNP. But is it worth it? Will it look way better on paper? Open up more doors? Guide me to being a better educator? I have not found anyone who personally went through that program.

A final option is that I am aware of a school that is creating a brand-new degree, the DNE... Doctorate in nursing education. It is essentially a DNP specifically designed for nurse educators. They are actively seeking CCNE accreditation. It will mirror the DNP and also have the 1000 hours post bachelor's requirement which would mean 900 hundred hours for me. This is a well ranked and well respected university.

I have no interest in being a nurse scientist who lives for grant money and publishing. I like teaching. Most of what I want to do is translate the existing research into the educational world to ensure we are educating our nursing students in the best way we know. However, if a topic interests me, I want to have the ability and knowledge do a study. I just finished a big QI project that got me published in a peer-reviewed journal which was exciting. The DNE sounds amazing, but it's a few years off. And I'm annoyed at having to do 900 hours because that would mean adding to my current workload and doing my job extra without pay. What's the point and benefit!? But it would be faster and less rigorous than the EdD.

Also, I have 2 kids and plan to start trying for a 3rd. I would love to wait but a combination of my job pushing me and not knowing if NFLP funding will still exist down the road and knowing down the road I will wish I had just done it has led me to looking at options now. I'm in my lower 30s so I have a long career ahead of me.

Sorry for rambling and the long post but any insight would be greatly appreciated. Anyone I've asked at work is just PhD or nothing except the NPs all say DNP. I have no idea why the EdD doesn't seem to have the respect in nursing education. It seems like the most ideal degree for an educator.

Thanks!

[Null]

Hello,

The Ed.D. from Columbia would certainly be more reputable than any online "diploma mill" program. I think that the first Ed.D. was offered at Columbia Teachers College.

I would advise avoiding the DNE. I have never heard of this degree. May I ask what university is offering it? I think there is real risk that you could finish this degree and it not be recognized. It certainly seems unlikely to have the same recognition as the Ed.D., Ph.D., or DNP.

If you are certain that you do not want tenure, you would probably be okay pursuing a DNP for clinical track positions at most community colleges and universities. In my humble opinion, I think the most opportunities exist for PhD > EdD > DNP.

[Oldmahubbard]

Our program director at my Psych NP program was an Ed.D.

She didn't have the foggiest notion of what she was talking about.

Believed mostly in Freud.

This should be illegal in my opinion.

Don't get meaningless letters after your name.

[HOPEforRNs, ADN, BSN, MSN]

42 minutes ago, Oldmahubbard said:

Our program director at my Psych NP program was an Ed.D.

She didn't have the foggiest notion of what she was talking about.

Believed mostly in Freud.

This should be illegal in my opinion.

Don't get meaningless letters after your name.

I don't think a doctorate in education is meaningless letters. I have a feeling the director you are referencing wouldn't have been any better with ANY degree or letters after her name.

What letters do you consider to not be meaningless? I need a terminal degree. A DNP doesn't make sense because it's designed for APRNs, which I am not. A PhD doesn't make sense because I don't want to be a researcher. An EdD seems to make sense as I am an educator and one focused in my area (nursing) seems like a good fit. I definitely want to make the right decision for my education/career so I'm curious why you think otherwise.

[HOPEforRNs, ADN, BSN, MSN]

1 hour ago, Null said:

Hello,

The Ed.D. from Columbia would certainly be more reputable than any online "diploma mill" program. I think that the first Ed.D. was offered at Columbia Teachers College.

I would advise avoiding the DNE. I have never heard of this degree. May I ask what university is offering it? I think there is real risk that you could finish this degree and it not be recognized. It certainly seems unlikely to have the same recognition as the Ed.D., Ph.D., or DNP.

If you are certain that you do not want tenure, you would probably be okay pursuing a DNP for clinical track positions at most community colleges and universities. In my humble opinion, I think the most opportunities exist for PhD > EdD > DNP.

The DNE doesn't yet exist. It's being created by The Ohio State University so I feel fairly confident it will be a wonderful degree once all the hoops are jumped through (such as getting CCNE accreditation). It's just a few years off still.

I already teach at a top 10 nursing program (BSN, MSN, and DNP are all top 10 ranked). I will retire from here. I'm fairly certain an EdD and DNP are looked at as "equal" and a PhD is ideal. I just don't want a PhD. I want education to be my #1 focus, not scholarly work. An EdD is definitely the perfect fit for what I want, but it seems like a lot more work for likely no additional respect/opportunities at work.... which is really unfortunate.

[llg, PhD, RN]

It sounds like you have thought it all through. You just need to decide which option will make you the happiest? (Or maybe, the least unhappy.) It soundsl like you are already where you want to be, doing the work you want to do. Talk to your school administration and see what, if any, preferences/biases they have to complete your investigation of the options.

Then decide -- and be prepared to live with the consequences of your choice.

Finally, I say this not to change your mind ... but PhD's are not only for 100% research careers. They can be geared towards academic work in general, that includes the scholarship of teaching, theorizing, philosophizing, etc. Your "research topic" for your dissertation can be geared towards your educational interests, etc. You can do research about nursing education, etc. If there is a good opportunity for a PhD that is feasible, don't rule it out just because you believe the degree is limited to clinical researchers doing studies of physical patient care. Don't forget that all the other faculty in other disciplines at the university have PhD's and they are not all focusing on "practice-oriented research."

[HOPEforRNs, ADN, BSN, MSN]

17 hours ago, llg said:

It sounds like you have thought it all through. You just need to decide which option will make you the happiest? (Or maybe, the least unhappy.) It soundsl like you are already where you want to be, doing the work you want to do. Talk to your school administration and see what, if any, preferences/biases they have to complete your investigation of the options.

Then decide -- and be prepared to live with the consequences of your choice.

Finally, I say this not to change your mind ... but PhD's are not only for 100% research careers. They can be geared towards academic work in general, that includes the scholarship of teaching, theorizing, philosophizing, etc. Your "research topic" for your dissertation can be geared towards your educational interests, etc. You can do research about nursing education, etc. If there is a good opportunity for a PhD that is feasible, don't rule it out just because you believe the degree is limited to clinical researchers doing studies of physical patient care. Don't forget that all the other faculty in other disciplines at the university have PhD's and they are not all focusing on "practice-oriented research."

I definitely feel like the EdD from Columbia will make me personally feel better, but it's just hard to justify the extra 3 years when my job won't care. I could get a DNP from an online diploma mill for profit school or an EdD from Columbia and it would be looked at the same.

I've thought about just getting a PhD. But the EdD teaches me how to be a better educator, which is what I am. The PhD has zero nursing education courses. Literally not a single class excites me. And I don't want to be tenure track anyway -- way too many requirements to publish and get salary recovery through grants.

I'll probably apply to Columbia and go from there.

[elizabeast7, ADN, BSN, MSN]

I am actually enrolled in the EdD at TC Columbia. Like you, I did not want to waste my time getting a DNP because I felt it would not teach me things I needed to know and would be doing something for the sake of doing something and not for actual personal growth and development. As for the PhD, I had similar feelings again - I have zero desire to be a researcher in a clinical setting and really wanted to grow as an educator. I am extremely happy with my choice to wait until I found a program that suited my goals. I'd be happy to chat more if you have specific questions! Feel free to e-mail me [email protected] ?

[HOPEforRNs, ADN, BSN, MSN]

11 minutes ago, elizabeast7 said:

I am actually enrolled in the EdD at TC Columbia. Like you, I did not want to waste my time getting a DNP because I felt it would not teach me things I needed to know and would be doing something for the sake of doing something and not for actual personal growth and development. As for the PhD, I had similar feelings again - I have zero desire to be a researcher in a clinical setting and really wanted to grow as an educator. I am extremely happy with my choice to wait until I found a program that suited my goals. I'd be happy to chat more if you have specific questions! Feel free to e-mail me [email protected] ?

I am SO excited I actually found someone in the program!! I will be e-mailing you. Thanks so much!

[Bumex, DNP, NP]

Where did you find info on DNE? I definitely know people whom will want to look into this for furthering their own education.

[professorcait, BSN, MSN, RN]

On 8/20/2019 at 7:31 PM, HOPEforRNs said:

The DNE doesn't yet exist. It's being created by The Ohio State University so I feel fairly confident it will be a wonderful degree once all the hoops are jumped through (such as getting CCNE accreditation). It's just a few years off still.

I already teach at a top 10 nursing program (BSN, MSN, and DNP are all top 10 ranked). I will retire from here. I'm fairly certain an EdD and DNP are looked at as "equal" and a PhD is ideal. I just don't want a PhD. I want education to be my #1 focus, not scholarly work. An EdD is definitely the perfect fit for what I want, but it seems like a lot more work for likely no additional respect/opportunities at work.... which is really unfortunate.

I had the same conundrum as you and really wanted an education-focused track. I looked into the EdD at Columbia, but I ended up going with a program at Bryan College of Health Sciences. They are accredited, and I’m done in 3.5 years versus 5. And it saves me a bit of money with the NFLP. I really love the program and what I’m learning. Did you end up going with Columbia?

[HOPEforRNs, ADN, BSN, MSN]

20 hours ago, professorcait said:

I had the same conundrum as you and really wanted an education-focused track. I looked into the EdD at Columbia, but I ended up going with a program at Bryan College of Health Sciences. They are accredited, and I’m done in 3.5 years versus 5. And it saves me a bit of money with the NFLP. I really love the program and what I’m learning. Did you end up going with Columbia?

I haven't done anything because I haven't felt like anything is "right." Columbia would be great on paper, but I am so annoyed by the fact they give you 0 credit hours for your last 2 years which makes the program unnecessarily long. I would get transfer credit for a good number of classes but I'd have to take random other classes to get enough hours since the last 2 years give you none.

Also my employer looks at PhD > EdD = DNP. So while the EdD is a great degree and the perfect one for educators who don't want to be researchers... why would I go to all the extra time & effort for no added career benefit? Obviously there are personal benefits but is it worth it? That's what I haven't decided yet.