DNP Fluff

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Just from comparing nurse practitioner DNP vs MSN course lists I felt these were fluff classes. I recently started the first semester of a DNP program and my opinion is evolving. Currently, I think the extra classes add some value. However, spending hours comparing various leadership frameworks, exploring personal ethics, contemplating system structures, and stressing the OCD qualities of an APA paper seems a huge misuse of time. I see no reason these topics could not be covered through a series of seminars.

In the first year, my class will spend 5x more time working on topics like this than learning something I find interesting like pathophysiology. I know many of my classmates have expressed disappointment in the agenda for this first year. Personally, I can feel a moral dip as I turn the page to another topic unrelated to learning how to diagnose and treat patients.

I guess what's really relevant is the quality of the school. I attend a prestigious grad school (just announced as in the Top 25 in the country) and we do a full year and a half of clinicals, along with graduate level pathophysiology, genetics and pharmacology taught by doctors and Pharm MDs. We have excellent sim lab facilities and our clinicals are arranged for us at the top 3 hospitals in the state where we learn to intubate, put in central lines and chest tubes (it's an acute program). We had actually relatively little fluff in my program, just 3 of the classes could be defined as fluff...ther rest are core graduate practicums, Advanced Physical Diagnosis, Acute Care Management of Complex Problems, and grad level science. I just completed the pharmacology class and it was one of the toughest I've ever done, and the health assessment class had me sweating bullets. Find a better program and you'll get better results.

I have to see the curriculum of that program to believe that... cause when I was looking to go to NP school, all the programs I researched in my state and neighboring states have a lot of fluff in their curriculum...

Even some NP preceptors are starting to complain about the quality of students they are getting.

The market will eventually get saturated with all these online programs that are popping up everywhere. The whole profession stands to suffer because of that. Pharmacy is dealing with similar situation even if their admission process is a lot more rigorous than NP admission.

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Specializes in Outpatient Psychiatry.
I guess what's really relevant is the quality of the school. I attend a prestigious grad school (just announced as in the Top 25 in the country) and we do a full year and a half of clinicals, along with graduate level pathophysiology, genetics and pharmacology taught by doctors and Pharm MDs. We have excellent sim lab facilities and our clinicals are arranged for us at the top 3 hospitals in the state where we learn to intubate, put in central lines and chest tubes (it's an acute program). We had actually relatively little fluff in my program, just 3 of the classes could be defined as fluff...ther rest are core graduate practicums, Advanced Physical Diagnosis, Acute Care Management of Complex Problems, and grad level science. I just completed the pharmacology class and it was one of the toughest I've ever done, and the health assessment class had me sweating bullets. Find a better program and you'll get better results.

Prestigious = cost. That's a problem. Any university should provide quality, clinically relevant education. I went to state U. Cost about 19k for my master's.

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Specializes in Critical Care and ED.
sounds like a good program but how much it cost tho? Some of the better schools seem to be upping their prices to the PA school range area.

Approximate cost will be about $30,000, although admittedly this is not a doctorate program...it's an MSN. There is a DNP option though and the cost is comparable to the extra credit hours involved.

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30k is a good price. Bout what mine cost a few years back. . Already paid more than that for one year med school tuition í ½í¸­

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The DNP degree is a load of fluff. Numerous DNP students are testifying in this thread that it adds no additional clinical knowledge and instead rehashes worthless philosophy and pedagogy. It's time to shut down this fraud.

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I guest we are talking past each other... I know some PA students don't have science degree, though most PA schools requires bio 1/2, gen chem 1/2, orgo 1/2, biochem and genetics, and some schools require microbiology for admission... All I was saying was that the average PA student that comes out of PA school will have more basic science knowledge than NP. That's an indisputable fact!

Regarding my knowledge of basic science, let say I have taken graduate level courses in genetics, biochem, anatomy, physiology, pathophysiology, histology, embryology, Immunology, microbiology, neuroanatomy etc... Not sure why my knowledge of basic is relevant to this when one can just look at PA/NP schools curricula and compare them.

There are many MDs who have undergraduate degrees in music or philosphy, yet they fulfilled the heavy science requirements to enter medical school. Perhaps they have a minor in biology/biochemistry but that's not as important as having excelled in the upper-level science courses that any RN/NP/DNP never dreams of taking.

All PA schools require microbiology with lab and A&P 1 and 2 with lab, in addition to the numerous other courses you describe. Add to this undergraduate calculus and statistics also being a requirement to enter any PA program, in addition to cellular biology for some programs. PA school itself then dives into much further depth with three semesters of pathophysiology and one of clinical anatomy. Add to that three semesters of pharmacology, three semesters of clinical medicine, three semesters of patient assessment, and some additional courses in genetics you have far, far surpassed any RN/NP/DNP. This does not happen to the same depth in any NP program. There are no fluff classes and there is no APA paper writing madness on obscure philosophies that don't impact your patients one bit.

DNP being classified as a "clinical" doctorate is fraudulent.

PA is quickly becoming the new version of the DO (Doctor of Osteopathy).

The total number hours of medical training PA students receive in both didactic and clinical hours exceeds even the most robust NP program.

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Specializes in Family Nurse Practitioner.
Add to that three semesters of pharmacology, three semesters of clinical medicine, three semesters of patient assessment, and some additional courses in genetics you have far, far surpassed any RN/NP/DNP.

This seriously should be the minimum requirement of any program that leads to diagnosing/prescribing privileges and at the very least I can not believe dnp programs don't require additional pharm courses. I would write the check today to apply to a DNP a program that offered the above unfortunately I'd have to be content with doing a "capstone" project on "The holistic benefits of holding your patient's hand" or something equally as flimsy in place of clinical hours, SMH.

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This seriously should be the minimum requirement of any program that leads to diagnosing/prescribing privileges and at the very least I can not believe DNP programs don't require additional pharm courses. I would write the check today to apply to a DNP a program that offered the above unfortunately I'd have to be content with doing a "capstone" project on "The holistic benefits of holding your patient's hand" or something equally as flimsy in place of clinical hours, SMH.

I wonder what NP schools mean when they title their singular pharmacology course "Advanced Pharmacology". Especially when it begins with the very basics of what a medication is yet doesn't actually go into anything advanced. Blindly memorizing "this medication for that condition" without appreciating the pharmacokinetics, pharmacodynamics, mechanisms, etc. What is actually "advanced" about this one course?

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i agree with what rock may says minus the pa becoming what DO is. DOs are equivalent to MDs and can pursue pretty much any specialty via residency. Pas cant work with specialists but arent going to be surgeons, or IM subspecialists any time in the future. They do get a much better education than NPs though.

They have a PA school where Im in med school at and they pretty much take most of what we take minus as in depth physiology and biochemistry. I think the rest of the classes are pretty similar just set up a little different. Like i think they take combined physio/pathophysio for 3 semesters that has some pharm in it and they get a full semester of just pharm/anatomy, etc.... where we have one year of biochem, one semester of physio, one semester of pharm, 1.5 of anatomy. then second year we have all combined physio/path stuff or whatever its called that has pharm and anatomy integrated back into it again along with more... biochemistry and other stuff blah blah blah.

We do have an ethics class so at least a little fluff lol

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Specializes in Family Nurse Practitioner.
I wonder what NP schools mean when they title their singular pharmacology course "Advanced Pharmacology". Especially when it begins with the very basics of what a medication is yet doesn't actually go into anything advanced. Blindly memorizing "this medication for that condition" without appreciating the pharmacokinetics, pharmacodynamics, mechanisms, etc. What is actually "advanced" about this one course?

Mine was more like an intro to pharm. I studied a bit but it wasn't challenging. My psych pharm class was easy because I had been a RN doling out these meds for years so yeah not really learning much there either. :(

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i agree with what rock may says minus the pa becoming what DO is. DOs are equivalent to MDs and can pursue pretty much any specialty via residency. Pas cant work with specialists but arent going to be surgeons, or IM subspecialists any time in the future.

PAs regularly work in sub-specialties and have done so for many years. 60% of graduating PAs enter sub-specialties immediately out of PA school. There is even one PA who has the title of "lead surgeon" of a heart/lung transplant team.

"Joseph Costa, DHSc, PA-C, is the first physician assistant to become a faculty member at NYP/Columbia University College of Physicians and Surgeons."

"His duties as lead surgeon include performing and teaching the intraoperative evaluation, cardiac dissection and cannulation for perfusion of lung allografts, and performing the en-bloc pneumonectomy."

Joseph Costa, DHSc, PA-C | Columbia University Department of Surgery

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ah sorry i ment to say that can work in specialties. That is cool that he is working in that type of role, which is still probably pretty rare. Just do to the fact that the PA profession is under tight grasp of the medical credentialers though I dont see it becoming a fully legally autonomous position. It is a great path though with many more options than NP school and Ive always had a better time working with PAs on the most part than other nurse practitioners.

They will probably add in more PA to MD or DO bridges in the future I would say.

I know most groups would rather higher PAs than NPs for obvious reasons also since it is a much better structured curriculum and often draws a different crowd than NP schools. Not quite sure why advanced practice nursing doesnt follow suit.

Every physician should have a PA or two working with them, would greatly help with workflow and allow more time for patient care.

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