DNP Fluff

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Just from comparing nurse practitioner DNP vs MSN course lists I felt these were fluff classes. I recently started the first semester of a DNP program and my opinion is evolving. Currently, I think the extra classes add some value. However, spending hours comparing various leadership frameworks, exploring personal ethics, contemplating system structures, and stressing the OCD qualities of an APA paper seems a huge misuse of time. I see no reason these topics could not be covered through a series of seminars.

In the first year, my class will spend 5x more time working on topics like this than learning something I find interesting like pathophysiology. I know many of my classmates have expressed disappointment in the agenda for this first year. Personally, I can feel a moral dip as I turn the page to another topic unrelated to learning how to diagnose and treat patients.

Specializes in cardiac, ICU, education.
1 YEAR of pharm vs 1 semester pretty much says it all, imo.

You think a NP should have more than 2 semesters? You don't prescribe nearly as many meds as a physician does and again, pharm should be in every clinical course an NP has. We have threads in our program, pharm is threaded throughout.

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Specializes in Family Nurse Practitioner.
You think a NP should have more than 2 semesters? You don't prescribe nearly as many meds as a physician does and again, pharm should be in every clinical course an NP has. We have threads in our program, pharm is threaded throughout.

Maybe you don't prescribe as many meds as a physician in your practice but I do the exact same job as my psychiatrist colleagues so my prescribing variety and quantity is in line with those of a similar prescribing philosophy. My guess is med school also threads pharm throughout their courses and clinical experiences also several years of them. I just think, especially without solid RN experience in the specialty, our education is a bare minimum at best.

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Way out of line. Every single MSN and NP knows what an IRB is and so do the majority of BSN's. That is a ridiculous statement.

Look on these forums and you'll quickly realize few NP students know what an IRB is.

Of course you can, That is your weakest argument. Notwithstanding the fact that you just destroyed your own stance because then you can't count PA intro pharm courses either.

Of course you can't and it's also an issue of accreditation. Any institution that grants graduate-level credit for an undergraduate-level course is acting with educational malfeasance.

A RN gives meds all the time in the hospital. I teach nurses at the BSN and graduate level. What they learn in undergrad is completely relevant to their graduate studies. Experience beats classroom or lab learning, they take everything they learn in school and apply it to the hospital. Just ask any adult learning theorist. All things being equal, I will say I would want a new NP to prescribe my meds over a new PA because it is quite likely the NP has been giving meds for years before they started prescribing.

Administering the med I'd also want someone with years as an RN. Prescribing the med I'd want a PA/MD/DO and never a fresh NP grad.

Any CRNA DNP program, and many with an acute care focus, and if you read my post I said my was completed in undergrad which is a requirement in any BSN that I know of. In one breath you say that undergrad should not count but then say that the PA program has it when many PA programs are Bachelor's degrees. You can't have it both ways. And does biochem make you a better PA? There is a lot of other classes that I would think would be more valuable.

Mine does, but I am not putting it up here. My colleague went here and they required one before you got into the program and one during,

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CRNA and ACNP are not the topic of debate here. I have strong respect for those programs and feel confident with the graduated they produce. We are discussing Family/Adult/Peds NPs.

Anyone can. But capstones are not required in PA programs. If you know of one that has one, great.

You are unaware of the vast majority of PA programs which do require novel research and research courses.

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lol we get one semester of full pharm but its integrated into everything else. not to mention we continually learn stuff in clinicals and residency.

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Specializes in cardiac, ICU, education.
Look on these forums and you'll quickly realize few NP students know what an IRB is.

If that is your main source of research, then that is a significant problem. And this thread is about DNP's, all of which have extensive education in research. Unlike a PhD they do not carry out a dissertation, but they take many of the same classes which include translational research, advanced stats, etc., and understand the IRB process. DNP's lead year-long projects. I know what research option our PA's have available to them, and if they choose to do research, they have to have a PI lead the project. You must not have read the following posts:

https://allnurses.com/doctor-nursing-practice/dnp-students-projects-1076180.html

https://allnurses.com/research-nursing/are-any-of-934361.html

https://allnurses.com/general-nursing-discussion/need-help-with-376492.html

Of course you can't and it's also an issue of accreditation. Any institution that grants graduate-level credit for an undergraduate-level course is acting with educational malfeasance.

I didn't say we grant graduate level credit, I am saying that the knowledge they gain in undergraduate is becomes part of the graduate experience. If an RN took pharm in his or her undergrad, which they all do, then they go onto advanced pharm classes later on. Not sure how that is getting lost in translation. Every program requires prerequisites, just the like PA program does.

Administering the med I'd also want someone with years as an RN. Prescribing the med I'd want a PA/MD/DO and never a fresh NP grad.

Please don't put PA's on the same level as MD's - no comparison.

In order to prescribe effectively, you need to have a great deal of knowledge and hopefully experience with medications. A new NP with RN experience runs circles around a new PA. Years of administering and looking up medications in the RN role is very valuable when understanding how to prescribe. I can see how an NP getting prescribing authority would be concerning for some as an NP can be an independent practitioner as a PA still needs supervision so they have that to fall back on. In fact, happened to my mom, the PA in the ER prescribed the wrong medication and the doctor reviewed the chart called 3 hours later to change it.

research and research courses.
A research class is very different from a capstone project, especially the one-semster, one-credit capstone project.

Look, I get it, you don't like NP programs, but then don't be an NP. My university has so many health oriented programs, probably the most in the nation, and our CRNA program is affiliated with the medical college. We all work together and have a lot of classes together. Even many of the PA's will tell me that they wished they had some of the hospital experience the NP's have because experience means so much more than anyone on this thread is considering. I am fine with my education, but like any other nursing professor who sits on the curriculum committee, I constantly strive to do make the programs I teach in better for everyone. All I see you doing is taking the biggest problems in the NP programs and comparing them to the highest accolades in the PA program. I work very well with PA's except for the arrogant ones who think they are independent practitioners and are better than the NP's.

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Please don't put PA's on the same level as MD's - no comparison.

It is a proper and appropriate comparison. Considering PA programs are often embedded into medical schools and the PA students take many of the same classes and tests with the medical students it's perfectly apt.

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Specializes in Family Nurse Practitioner.
It is a proper and appropriate comparison. Considering PA programs are often embedded into medical schools and the PA students take many of the same classes and tests with the medical students it's perfectly apt.

While I know many nurses feel they don't need physicians for anything I can only wish we had the the AMAs oversight into our NP curriculum and standards. I would bet our education would be amazing if they were willing to work together to achieve a common goal of competent patient care.

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Specializes in Family Nurse Practitioner.
You design your capstone based on the specialty you want to pursue. Many are very clinical in nature.

Ones my friends or colleagues have been a part of (I am not a capstone advisor):

Provider Adherence to Evidence-Based Asthma Guidelines in a Community Health Center

Cardio Pulmonary Resuscitation Decisions in Nursing Home Residents

Polycystic Ovarian Syndrome: A Management Algorithm for Primary Care Providers

Measuring Endoscopic Performance for Colorectal Cancer Prevention Quality Improvement in a Gastroenterology Practice

etc.

Totally agree there probably some that are worthwhile however I would guess that is the exception rather than the rule. The the ones I have seen have been nothing more than a "nursing research" type term paper and even for good ones to have that activity count as an entire semester of clinical hours is bogus, imo. For all those with absolutely no RN experience how do they even know what clinical areas are problematic and would benefit from improvement?

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Specializes in cardiac, ICU, education.
For all those with absolutely no RN experience how do they even know what clinical areas are problematic and would benefit from improvement?

I totally agree with you there. Nobody, Imho, should be allowed into an NP without experience, but PA's graduate without experience too.

I can only wish we had the the AMAs oversight into our NP curriculum and standards.

Be careful what you wish for. We can change internally, the AMA is not all it is cracked up to be either. My husband is a physician, I watched him go through medical school and residency. It is amazing how many times the residents are left alone and a lot of the learning happens by themselves. I think nursing is making strides everyday, but I am one of the people who is trying to make it better.

You sound like you care a great deal about nursing education, which is great. But I say this very respectfully, complaining about it on this thread or any other won't change anything. I teach .5 and work directing a program .5 and every single one of my clinical instructors are NP's. We pay the hospital to give them a day off to teach on the floor. It is amazing, the NP's who are familiar with the hospital or clinic, who also have great expertise in clinical practice are giving back. This is where the real learning begins. If you want to make a change, offer your services (paid, of course) to a university and teach! You can also offer your expertise to the AANP or ANCC. Get a group of NP's together to ask for tougher standards, they listen to NP's very often in online or open forums. With all the passion you have, it would be wonderful to put it to good use.

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Specializes in cardiac, ICU, education.
It is a proper and appropriate comparison. Considering PA programs are often embedded into medical schools and the PA students take many of the same classes and tests with the medical students it's perfectly apt.

There are nursing programs that learn right along physicians as well, but neither is the same.

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Again, you are giving a lot of opinions, and I don't know if you are a med student or PA, but unless you are doing any program NP/PA/MD you don't have the background to make all these claims. You are so worried about amount of time in school, yet are you looking at the outcome of both? Is there any difference? Pretty much every study says no difference in outcomes.

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Specializes in Family Nurse Practitioner.

You sound like you care a great deal about nursing education, which is great. But I say this very respectfully, complaining about it on this thread or any other won't change anything. I teach .5 and work directing a program .5 and every single one of my clinical instructors are NP's. We pay the hospital to give them a day off to teach on the floor. It is amazing, the NP's who are familiar with the hospital or clinic, who also have great expertise in clinical practice are giving back. This is where the real learning begins. If you want to make a change, offer your services (paid, of course) to a university and teach! You can also offer your expertise to the AANP or ANCC. Get a group of NP's together to ask for tougher standards, they listen to NP's very often in online or open forums. With all the passion you have, it would be wonderful to put it to good use.

I really do care about nursing as a profession, have loved my career for the most part, and my posts are intended to hopefully result in critical thinking and reduce the KoolAid drinking which I feel is fairly prevalent especially in nursing education. I have in fact taught BSN students which I loved but took a break a couple of years ago because the rate is so low compared to my NP rate and the entitled little darlings were starting to get on my nerves, lol. I precept NP students who I know who have experience and a decent head on their shoulders. I'm also very active in my state and local NP activities because I believe if I'm going to run my mouth its important I back it up with action. :)

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Specializes in Forensic Psychiatry.
While I know many nurses feel they don't need physicians for anything I can only wish we had the the AMAs oversight into our NP curriculum and standards. I would bet our education would be amazing if they were willing to work together to achieve a common goal of competent patient care.

I researched my bum off to find an NP school that had a partnership with a medical school. Some of my classes are taught by NP faculty and some (like my psychopharmacology course) were taught by MD faculty. Not one person failed out of the courses run by the NP's (including general pharm), but half my class failed out of the Psychopharm course run by the MD faculty.

The attending MD's that work with my program are very pro-NP but cannot figure out why our board is run by BSN nurses, why our standards for entry are so low, why we get 3 courses in therapy and only one in psychopharmacology, why our Neuro/cognitive science lecture consisted of "review this video", and why we have so few clinical training hours. Right now they're angling to take over the entire program out of frustration with current NP's coming into the market (Xanax and Adderall... so Much Xanax and Adderall) and difficulties they are having with the class under ours (all DNP, none with psych experience) due to their lack of say on the admissions committee. I really hope they do because honestly the NP taught classes fall short of those taught by the department of psychiatry.

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