Degree vs Diploma?

inthebiz · Dec 13, 2008

I am a diploma nurse and find I have a great work ethic, I'm ready to jump in and do the job and have been from day one upon graduating (1984 graduate). I don't have a 'degree' and now wish I did. If I had to do it all over again I think I would immediately finish my 'degree' upon graduating nursing school. I loved the nursing school route but now wish I had a BS or BSN. I have worked hem/onc and NICU in hospitals and am crrently a school nurse........not once has anyone ever said.........'oh, you only have a diploma'. Maybe they see the school I went to and know I am ready to work. We have a 100% board passage rate the two years before I graduated and it was generally a 98% pass rate before that. But, like I said I wish I would have my BS so I have something to fall back on re: moving up the ladder as I age and want to move on to something else.

lindarn · Dec 13, 2008

I am a diploma nurse and find I have a great work ethic, I'm ready to jump in and do the job and have been from day one upon graduating (1984 graduate). I don't have a 'degree' and now wish I did. If I had to do it all over again I think I would immediately finish my 'degree' upon graduating nursing school. I loved the nursing school route but now wish I had a BS or BSN. I have worked hem/onc and NICU in hospitals and am crrently a school nurse........not once has anyone ever said.........'oh, you only have a diploma'. Maybe they see the school I went to and know I am ready to work. We have a 100% board passage rate the two years before I graduated and it was generally a 98% pass rate before that. But, like I said I wish I would have my BS so I have something to fall back on re: moving up the ladder as I age and want to move on to something else.

I also, was originally a Diploma nursing graduate from 1975. It did not take me long to figure out that nurses were on the bottom of the food chain. Other health care professionals, who had a Bachelors degree, (at the time, a Bachelors was the educational entry into prectice for PT, OT, ST, Pharmacists), ALL made more money than nurses, had far more respect from everyone. At the time, and to a lesser degree now, a Diploma in nursing was an educational dead end. Colleges did not recognize your diploma credits, nursing and science, and it took forever to earn a four year college degree, because you were starting from scratch.

And even today, hospitals are trying to maintain the status quo, by not recognizing a BSN is worthy of higher pay, to recognize the higher degree. It is the hospitals, and our own peers, who choose to not recognize a BSN, and fight any attempt to reward it with a higher salary, like other professions, like teaching. This of course is encouraged by hospitals, who do not want to pay any more for a nurse, regardless of the educational preparation.

I would go for the BSN over a Diploma. Like the poster said above, you don't know what the future holds, and it will be better to earn it now, then in the future when there may be circumstances that would make it difficult, if not impossible, to go back to school. JMHO and my NY $0.02.

Lindarn, Rn, BSN, CCRN

Spokane, Washington

lee1 · Dec 28, 2008

I agree, anyone going to school these days should opt for the BSN as the opportunities are better upon graduating in my opinion.

But, first let me shed some light. This debate has been going on for a LOOOOOOng time. I graduated in 1967 and have heard the SAME story for all of these years. The schools should just consolidate and make it ONLY BSN for entry at this point. They (boards of nursing) have created so much confusion over this for so many years it is rediculous. Always, the same whine, not enough nurses so let's make it easier, shorter school to get them out, then oops-------still not enough, let's import them------

The bottom line is the salaries, working conditions, the fight with unionizing nurses (which only came about because you had to FORCE the hospitals to do the right thing)

Now, I don't see any problems with all of those business people that seem to be running hospitals these days--------all of those BA degrees that did NOT exist 40 years ago------when only the nurses and docs ran the hospitals and those business degrees-----accountants-----worked for them, not the other way around. They for the most part already work 9-5pm days, get paid what they are worth, get holiday/weekends off, etc. etc.

Junebugfairy · Jan 1, 2009

i am currently in a diploma rn program, and i love it.

as a side note, my local university does accept diploma rn's for their bsn. i took all my pre req's at a community college, so i would have enough to enter for a bsn if i wish.

Saifudin · Jan 2, 2009

I didn't know diploma programs still existed. I am a diploma grad from 1978.

I would recommend at a minimum an associates degree to get you started and if you need to get into the workforce quickly go the this route but if you can wait and can afford a BS program do it at one time.

As a nursing director, I have learned over the years that while passing your states licensure exam does assure a certain level of competency, degree programs, I believe do spend more time on developing critical thinking skills versus diploma programs, however, that is a generalization. There is research attesting to the BSN being superior to all other degrees, however, you will find a wide range of opinions regarding this research.

Perhaps more importantly is the trend in nursing towards the BSN as an entry level degree for nursing. With many hospitals receiving magnet recognition the BSN is required for promotion. I often see BSN as a requirement for nursing positions.

To avoid a high student debt I think ADN degrees are the way to go. You get out in 2 years or so, able to work, earn and then seek an employer who pays for continuing education. But, I would try to get your BSN sooner than later if possible.

TimStreet · Jan 14, 2009

I graduated in 1980 with a Diploma and was extremely well prepared to sit for my boards and to enter practice. "Climbing the ladder" never really appealed to me. I've never felt that my Diploma hindered my career, financially or professionally either. I would never trade the clinical experience my Diploma provided. Occasionally I contemplated pursuing a BSN but in my area there is no compensation to have a BSN. Additionally, to earn a BSN would require a substantial financial investment that at the age of 50 I would get no return on. (unless I climbed that ladder,yucch)

I'm amazed at the utter lack of experience todays grads enter the work force with. They are trained just well enough to pass a brief computerized board test. Hospitals now bear the financial burden of orienting them until they are minimally competent.

When I was going to school they told us that by 1985 a BSN would be the mandatory level for entry into practice. In my opinion this added to the shortage. Why go to a 4 year school to get a degree which at the time paid poorly, when one could get a degree in something else that paid much better?

Anyway my Diploma has always suited my well and at the risk of sounding like an old fogey, maybe we lost more than we gained by eliminating the Diploma as an option. I know more was expected of us as students compared to today.

Junebugfairy · Jan 15, 2009

the terrific thing about my diploma program is that it is associated with a hospital, which they all were anyway, and i get extra experience by doing the diploma than if i went to a normal community college.

dreamon · Jan 15, 2009

That is what attracted me to the diploma program in the first place. I would rather get a diploma education along with tons of clinical experience that will help me become more comfortable after graduation. Rather than getting all my book education stuff first, then clinical education second in addition to dealing with hospital politics, which seems to be very hard for new grad nurses from all the threads written.

So many nurses end up going back for higher education, whether it is LPN to RN, AND to BSN, BSN to MSN- so it is nothing strange to go back for that.

Saifudin · Jan 15, 2009

Its nice to hear from diploma colleagues. I agree with TimStreet, I too was well prepared for general nursing when I graduated except for critical care. My hospital was a small community hospital in Pittsburgh with a ward converted to four monitor beds but basic nursing skills and care were taught in an excellent manner. The other thing, my program was dirt cheap! The whole thing was only around 2,500 dollars, still not bad in 1975 terms. Housing and food was included the first year then 50 dollars a month the final two years. And, we dormed in a beautiful old victorian dorm sorrounded by huge trees. It was excellent. (Ahh, nice thoughts).

I left general nursing in 1981 for NP training and am working outside the US now for over 13 years so I am not well acquainted with the current state of nursing affairs but from what I have been reading over the past months on Allnurses, bed side nursing seems different now, supplanted by a good deal of technology, documentation, etc., and it is disheartening to read different posts about serious behavioral issues by nurses and problems b/tween staff nurses and nusing administration. In 'my day' we really worked as teams, enjoyed our work, gave 'kick'in' back-rubs and most of us didn't think about doing some other kind of work. I don't remember adversarial problems b/tween staff and adm.

With that said, now I see the benefit of advanced degrees. I also remember when the BSN was to become mandatory. I entered a BS program in health care management. My NP supervisor in new york had completed that program and they gave 60 credits for the nursing diploma. At that time to the early nineties it was suggested that nurses pursue graduate degrees in business or administration. Diversification was the rage consistent with massive hospital acquistions. Nursing managers with a business accumen were valued in the hosptial paradigm of that time. In the late ninieties hospital development strategies began to change based on economics. The idea of diversying with a grad degree outside of nursing was becoming less significant. The BSN/MSN has become more valued as increasingly more hospitals want nurses with stronger nursing eductional backgrounds. I think that is likely highly variable depending upon a facilities organizational culture. I still see nursing management jobs accepting MSN, MHA, etc. I think some BSN/MSN drive is being driven by the ANAs magnet hospital program. Yet, I do think that higher nursing degrees do offer a higher level of nursing knowledge as well.

In my experience my diploma program was basic nursing and gave me a solid foundation for general nursing. My NP program was a one year certification and gave me what I needed to get started. Both have served my extremely well! However, my pursuit of higher education is definately 'value-added' and I am seeing how important this education is. My entry level RN/NP was good but it could have been better.

I am currently doing a masters in health care adm. I just fiinished a course in research methodology. The stats were rough but overall a very helpful course. BSN and higher degrees give this information and its important depending on your work. I need and want to research certain issues in my work and now have a better idea how to go about doing it. Also, as an NP I have a better understanding of what the stats and stats used in a study actually represent (but I still 'cut to the chase' and go for the discussion...). I don't know if todays diploma programs get into this information but in my position and where I still would like to go in my career, I need this knowledge.

I now advocate getting the highest level of entry level education one can afford at the outset. It can save alot of time and effort later on in ones career and can offer a more rapid progression in advancement depending on ones career goals.

In realistic terms, with one in college and two getting ready for the fall, (with dad paying for his grad school out-of-pocket) there are economic realities as well and advanced degrees are what I need to move in my career.

Finally, I believe that critical thinking and problem solving skills are definately important. My basic nursing did little to develop that and experience is really an important element in developing these skills, not just the classroom However, I now believe that the mere act of study, learning and researching does help develop these skills as well as increasing responsibility. As the only American and westerner in the hospital I work I have had to depend on myself to develop my department. I can see how much I have grown over the past 13 years, often by trial and error. Both my daily experience and my pursuit of education has helped to develop my critical thinking skills.

Acquriing Knowledge really is a constant journey.

Saifudin · Jan 15, 2009

It's nice to hear from other diploma grads. I agree with TimStreet. My diploma program also prepared me well for the time (1978) as my one year Adult NP program also did. These programs allowed me to enter both areas successfully and at very low cost. However over the past 3 decades and where I am in my career at this point as director of nursing, higher education is necessary for my own needs as well as viability for future advancement.

Experience and education are complimentary. As a DON and the only westerner in my hospital I must rely largely on myself. I have learned and developed to a degree by trial and error and I have seen my growth over the past 13 plus years (in my current position) and in fact, I feel I am just peaking in how I am leading and developing my department which is in a Saudi hospital with nurses from 6 countries. It is a huge challenge as many are far below the standard I need to establish a western standard of practice but, we are moving ahead, maybe by tiny steps, but it is positive movement none-the-less. (I had to first start by getting my staff to first understand what is a standard.) While my basic education and past experiences are enough for the hospital I work in, I have seen how my continuous pursuit of knowledge via self study and graduate studies have helped me to grow and improve. It really is a constant process.

It is interesting how shifting health care paradigms over the years have changed the type of education nurses undertake. In the mid-eighties large hospital acquisitions valued nurses who had 'diversified' degrees such as MBAs and MHAs. I did a BS in health care management during that time, largely because the supervisor of our NP group where I worked did the same program and went on for her MBA. Now, BSN/MSN are being important I think in large part due to magnet recognition programs by the ANA, economic and political considerations and other variables.

There are things that a BSN offers that my diploma did not. Nursing theories and research methodologies (with statistics) are two examples. I thought for many years that nursing theories were irrelevant at least for my practice but in my position now, some aspects of nursing theories have offered me valuable ideas and a recent research methodology course in my MHA grad program has been invaluable.

In short, I now believe that anyone entering nursing now should pursue the highest degree they can at the outset. It not only provides important information, it will save time in the future if one decides to pursue higher degrees (or needs to) and can open a variety of career paths that one often does not envision in the early stages of ones career. The old adage 'if I knew then what I know now' has some merit but we will never know the future until we live it but we can seek the experiences and wisdom of others who have been there for guidance.

Saifudin · Jan 15, 2009

apologies: Sorry to all for the two posts, i thought the first was lost so I wrote another one.

msrae2966 · Jun 20, 2009

hello,
i feel like there is a real unfortunate separation that exists these days between diploma and bsn nurses. i have been a nurse for 14 years and worked in critical care, home care, psychiatry, med surg, gyn. my experience even as a supervisor exists. i have a diploma. i don't feel that it is fair that my experience is not as valuble as having to have a bachelors. i meet new graduates that seem to believe that they have a higher and more valuble level of knowlege. to me it seems sad and i speak for all nurses with diploma programs, who have worked so hard in a clinical setting for so many years and have not been given the opportunity as others with bachelors. it is unfortunate because of the amount of hands on knowlege,contribution, and experience we have that is worth more than any bachelors. i don't feel like spending $30,000, and two more year to obtain a bachelors, which would be nothing more than a "refresher" for me.
ok, so maybe i will end of having to do this because i won't have any choice if i need to meet the "standard level of acceptable education" required for me to obtain the jobs i want ie. management. in fact i would rather take an administrative, or leadership course or management course because i know at least i'd learn something new.
so i've said what i like to say. peace to all!
it seems that they had abolished the diploma program from my town a few years ago, and only have bsn. this is fine except for the fact that nurses who had graduated prior from diploma were never grandfathered or given financial aid to complete to move on to a bachelors.

wow!!! that was very helpful input and although i am not an rn (yet), i have to agree with you completely that being more experienced is a little better than someone who has "book knowledge"...

i am not discrediting education, but i am struggling to get through some of my classes that have nothing to do with nursing, but are required to obtain a degree since i am more focused on what's important than my philosophy class, etc.... hands-on experience would make me far more of an asset to any employer...

i think everyone, especially you all from the original diploma format should get paid based on your experience vs education....my grandmother had a diploma and her entire hospital suffered when she retired....it wasn't solely based on her great personality...she was a great rn!

my hat's off to you guys...i'd rather get one of you as my nurse as opposed to a bsn student who has to run back and check their books or ask someone for help in order to provide care for me....

thank you to you and your peers! thank you, thank you, thank you!!!!!!!!!!!