Degree vs Diploma?

[nickos]

Hey guys, this might be a dumb question..but what is the difference between getting your RN via a diploma vs a degree? Is there a difference in the length, depth, pay or skills involved?

[Lovely_RN, MSN]

I work with many excellent diploma nurses and they don't have any trouble finding jobs but that's because most of them have at least 20 years experience! I would NOT recommend a diploma program to anyone entering the nursing field in 2011 or beyond for the simple fact that employers have become extremely picky. It may vary from state to state but in NYS there is one diploma program left in the upstate region. Downstate and especially in the five boroughs it's almost impossible for new grads with the ADN to get a hospital job much less a diploma nurse. I have a B.A in another area, I had 2 years experience as an LPN, and I even was a CNA way back in the day. It took me months to find a job and that was with connections. My hopistal has a ADN school and yet they are going for magnet status and recently many of their job postings are stating BSN preferred which I think is funky considering that the school affiliated with the hospital is cranking out more ADN nurses!

I had no intention of getting the BSN because of my previous degree. My plan was to find my niche and then go for the MSN in whatever area interested me the most. Now, I'm considering doing an online BSN program for job security and more opportunities. I have the magical year of experience as an RN and I'm still hitting smack up against a brick wall as far as finding my next opportunity due to my ADN...my previous degree means nada to these recruiters.

The U.S is a huge country and hiring trends vary but my advice to anyone entering the nursing field today is to go for the BSN from the start if you can. If you can't then get the ADN and then go straight for the BSN so that at least you can put on your employment apps that it's in progress.

[elkpark]

this diploma nurse, with 38 yrs exp. has never been held back from administrative positions, as director of a ER

coord. nurse clinicians, ER supv. in a Wash. DC hospital etc........HN of a CV/MedSurg floor in the Texas Med. Ctr. and this was within the first 8 yrs of my graduation. A bacl. degree is just that a 4 yr. college degree. I have also been a clinical preceptor for BS new RN grads. in ICU............ I was simply a RN with a lot of clinical and administrative experience.

That is great. Unfortunately, that is not the case in many areas. Experience in clinical

and administrative experience is not honored here without the BSN.

It seems to vary by region and perhaps supply and demand.

I think it's more a matter of time than location. While it used to be possible and, indeed, common for a diploma RN with no additional formal education to work her/his way up over time to the highest management/leadership positions in hospitals, it is now virtually impossible to do that anywhere in the US. Times and expectations have changed (I'm not saying that's necessarily a good thing, or justified, just that it's the current reality).

[Guest717236]

The longer I've been out of school and "out and about" in nursing, the more I appreciate what an excellent nursing education I got in my original diploma program. Not only did we graduate with excellent clinical skills and ready to "hit the floor running," they also did a better job of teaching us critical thinking, professionalism, ethics, leadership, etc., than any of the ADN or BSN programs I've had experience with since then.

IMHO, we've "thrown the baby out with the bathwater" in many ways in nursing education.

Hi Elkpark,

Above is a quote from another thread.

Why would it have been wrong to use the strengths from diploma

programs and keep nurses working who are experienced and

knowledgeable. Not everyone is in a position to paper chase

after degrees. I will still maintain my position that making current

diploma nurses (and ADN nurses) redundant is a mistake.

Nurses come from different backgrounds financially as well as

life experience. Not everyone can afford a BSN from the start, and ADN

degrees are stepping stones. The experienced diploma and

ADN do mentor and preceptors for BSN students who are learning and need real world guidance. .

Next on the potential chopping block, CNS programs are drying up.

Now for the near future, DNPs will be the degree of moment.

Many of my friends are in process of trying to achieve NP

status in time and are at risk of missing the window of an MSN requirement

For the student(and their families) it is a sacrifice to get the BSN then MSN.

They are currently racing through a BSN, concerned about this new time

demand.

No other field changes education demands that I know of as

quickly as nursing...

Not saying that nursing should not advance by setting a BSN

as entry degree, but how soon will the BSN be "the

baby thrown out with the bath water"?

(I know from other threads you like a good discussion, so posting my thoughts

to keep the discussion lively:jester:)

[lindarn]

Why do we not hear the same excuses from Physical Therapists, Occupational Therapists, Pharmacists, etc, when they increased their entry into practice from Bachelors Degrees to Graduate degrees- Masters, and then Doctorates?

It is appaling how nurses make every excuse in the book to not advance the educational levels of the nursing profesion. In fact, I have had Occupational Therapists tell me that they are happy that the entry into practice was increased to a Masters Degree. Why? Because it keeps their numbers low, which keeps their salaries high, their services in demand, and keeps the riff raff out (their words, not mine).

And folk, it works. They control their profession, have more respect than we do (spare me the Gallup pole about nurses being voted the number one trusted profession- if we enforced visiting hours, had visitors and patients hauled off to jail for verbal and physical abuse, had security escort them out of the hospital for the above infractions), they would have a differant view and opinion of the nursing profession.

Nurses are pushovers, with no control over our practice, working conditions, etc, and they like that they can abuse us, and get the nurse fired for not acting like a waitress, or a concierge and demonstrating, "customer service".

The public equates worth with education. We are too easily replaced by HS dropouts and/or lower educated minimallly trained personnel. Our low levels of education also make us prime targets for replacement with these individuals. It is not a hard sell to tell the public that they are, "keeping the cost of health care low by using less expensive employees". And the public buys it hook, line, and sinker.

They go on to point out that "nurses only go to school for two years, and these other, "make believe nurses", go to 'school' for almost as long- 6 months", if that long. The point is, it doesn't take alot to convince the public that our cheap replacements are "just like a nurse:". They don't realize what is squeezed into these two years- the hard sciences, math, labs, clinicals, etc, and a professional licensing exam.

We are not doing ourselves any favors by continuing to allow three levels of entry into practice. It continues to confuse the public, and allows the hospitals and nursing homes to devalue our contributions to patient care, and positive patient outcomes and patient satisfaction. But more importantly, it allows the hospitals to just sit back, watch as we conrtinue to infight, and accomplish nothing. And it costs them nothing. And they get just what they want- disempowered nurses, who are "kept barefoot and pregnant"- (sorry guys).

The additional fact that most of us are not unionized and free to criticize and challenge management decisions, make us prime targets to receive the butt and blame for poor outcomes, when we are thrown under the bus when the you-know -what- hits the fan.

While I am sorry that a four year college degree is not attainable to everyone, that is life. You are not owed a nursing education just because you want one. Not everyone who wants to be a doctor of lawyer, gets to attend these professional schools. There is an educational bar that has to be met by EVERYONE, in order to attain these credentials. No one is allowed to jump ahead by virtue of a previous educational credential. Paralegals don't jump to the Junior year of law school, and PAs have to start as Medical School freshman. And everyone has to go through all four years of medical school.

JMHO and my NY $0.02.

Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN

Somewhere in the PACNW