Dealing with Violent Children

[medgirlRN]

hello everyone. my question stems from my personal experience. i have a brother and sister-in-law to often take their children (my niece and nephew) to her mother's house where her brother and her two nephews live there. these boys are incredibly violent...and not just an over-reacting to boys being boys, but utterly violent. they have scratched, punched, thrown harmful things at my niece. just recently, one threatened her life with scissors. the parents are well aware of this and still continue to take them there so they can spend time with her mother. my niece is in the same class as my daughter. my niece is add and is always aggressive towards my daughter. when she experiences these traumas with these boys, she winds up being even more aggressive towards my daughter. i have talked to my daughter about these children and how to avoid them, how to not be like them or around them. i have no control over the other children. i wanted to know from people who have experienced these types of children, (7 & 9 years old), and how to handle this type of situation? is there a situation to handle at all? are these boys at risk for schizophrenic? do they need mental health care or cps? are these clinical manifestations for either the boys, or my niece to become violent adolescents and/or adults?

any information will be greatly appreciated.

[animal1993]

I am one of those people who will tell you that my parents spanked me when I needed it and I turned out just fine! There is a HUGE difference between spanking and beating. As for my own children, I don't believe every offense is deserving of a spanking. As a matter of fact, it happens very rarely. However, if talking about and explaining why a behavior is wrong (and especially if the behavior is going to lead to harm to my child or to someone else) isn't working, then I have no problem putting a little fear in them. Maybe they'll think about the consequences for that action should it ever cross their minds again!

[Jo Dirt]

I only took a few psychology classes and only one specifically on abnormal psychology, but I don't think the kids sound at all schizophrenic from your description...I'd just avoid them as much as possible and let the parents know why.

by the by, no mental health professionals recommend physically punishing children by spanking/hitting/etc. if anything, that just tells kids that violence is an ok way to solve problems. "I'm going to hit you to show you hitting people is wrong!" doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me...positive reinforcement is the way to go.

the American Psychological Association has released a public statement on the subject...

to reiterate: the largest mental health organization in america has publicly stated that over 60 years of research indicates that spanking/hitting/beating/whooping children makes them more violent, not less.

Violence has its place. In some instances I think it is totally necessary to spank a child. It sounds like these boys need to be flogged. People make the mistake of thinking the spanking cures everything. That is only the beginning. They learn by consistency and most of all by example. These deadwood parents probably allow these kids to watch all kinds of filth and violence on tv.

[medgirlRN]

Thank you all so much for your input. I forgot to mention about why I thought schizophrenic...one boy says the voices in his head tell him to hurt people.

I have talked many times to my brother and sister-in-law and have banned my daughter from going anywhere near that family or house. I sometimes take my niece and nephew with me when I pick up my daughter to offer some stability and a healthy play environment. Sadly though, when my daughter is mistreated by her cousin at school I do not take them because I refuse for my daughter to continue being harrased in her own home. The teachers are well aware of the behavior issues at school WITHOUT me telling them...just by their own observations and discussions with her mother. Seperation and discipline is applied when a situation in class becomes out of line.

I have began the process of separation from my brother's family - mostly his children - by limiting time together outside of school. I can see that my niece and nephew are hurt because they want to spend time with me. But I don't want to have my daughter exposed more than she has. I talked to her about the reasons why and she understands.

Granted, they are not around their other cousins every day or all the time, probobly two weekends a month. It still does leave an impact on their young lives to be around them though. They come to school after a visit with them with very aggressive behavior.

Thank you also for the experience from psych patients. What other interventions can be done?

[BabyLady, BSN, RN]

Many times with children, they will do pretty much anything that they don't suffer the consequences for.

Ever seen video's of animals in the wild? Any pup/cub/etc that shows aggression toward a parent...the reaction is swift and punishing.

Humans, should be easier.

I know that if I was told my child raised a pair of scissors to another person, they would probably have to call social services on me, because either one of my children would receive a spanking they would remember for the rest of their lives.

If it were me, I wouldn't take my child over there when the kids are there...period. Don't let anyone pull a guilt trip on you.

I would also request to the school that your child be moved to another class...no, it's not fair, but your neice is probably focusing on your daughter b/c your daughter is familiar...and she also knows she can get away with more at school.

Do the parents discipline these kids? My guess is not or very little....you may have a behavioral issue with one that is mental...but to have TWO?

That is environmental.

You can't let kids run wild at home and expect them to behave someplace else.

[BabyLady, BSN, RN]

Thank you all so much for your input. I forgot to mention about why I thought schizophrenic...one boy says the voices in his head tell him to hurt people.

Shizophenia is very, very rare in children. It's a fine line between blaming an "imaginary friend" or "hearing voices" that is schizophrenia vs a child making up a story to blame someone else.

Most pediatric psychiatrists are very hesitant to make such a Dx until the child is older.

[Jules A, MSN]

What other interventions can be done?

I'm not sure what other interventions you mean. It sounds like you are protecting your child adequately and these boys need professional help NOW especially if one is having command hallucinations. The family needs to be investigated.

[medgirlRN]

I'm not sure what other interventions you mean. It sounds like you are protecting your child adequately and these boys need professional help NOW especially if one is having command hallucinations. The family needs to be investigated.

The internetions I've done (am have been advised) is taking my daughter out of the situation, talking with the parents, and teachers.

Some say report the family - I just didn't know if CPS would be appropriate or contacting a psych unit? If so, what can they do with my "heresay" of the situation? CPS investigates allegations of abuse. The children I feel are the abusers, what can CPS do about the children being abusers? If they investigate and find they are abused themselves then perhaps it would be right. But for mental help, the interventions I wonder about is who to contact, if I should even contact anyone - being as that family is not associated with me (aside from my niece and nephew). As long as I continue to keep my daughter away from them, should this be the only intervention I do about these troubled youths?

Also, with these manifestations from these boys, is it expected that they will become more violent, suicidal, or more of a danger to others? I can jump to my own conclusions as a mother, but as professionals working in the health field I wonder the outcome? As a heads up, they do not seek any help from anyone as their father, and grandmother defend their actions by stating, "Oh, they're just boys. Just don't play with them."

And, with the knowledge I have about this situation, do I pursue it more by reporting it (and to whom), or hope that my brother and sister-in-law come to their senses and make the report themselves since it's their own children in that situation? My knowledge comes from what my niece tells me, the scars I see, talking to the parents for confirmation, and the change in behavior from my niece and nephew.

[Multicollinearity, BSN, RN]

My thoughts:

You aren't their nurse. You aren't responsible for any interventions - it isn't your place. If you must, to settle your mind, contact CPS, one time and make a report. Something tells me CPS or law enforcement probably already 'knows' this family anyway.

Then leave it be, and put these people out of your mind. No contact. Out of sight, out of mind.

[pagandeva2000, LPN]

You can't control how these people parent, but I would not allow MY child to be exposed to any of this! What sort of trust would your daughter have in you if she continues to tell you she is afraid to be around these children and they are still allowed to be in her presence? Give your brother resources, but, do not allow YOUR child to be traumatized by them!

These kids need help, but I am more for protecting mine first. I would not associate with ANY of them. PERIOD.

[Jules A, MSN]

My thoughts:

You aren't their nurse. You aren't responsible for any interventions - it isn't your place. If you must, to settle your mind, contact CPS, one time and make a report.

Then leave it be, and put these people out of your mind. No contact. Out of sight, out of mind.

I'd have to disagree and am shocked to read this. Children that might be abused or in danger to themselves and/or others most definitely need someone to intervene on their behalf. Not that anything will come of it but I'd rather be safe a million times than sorry once.

To the OP:

At the very least I would notify the authorities that the girl is being hit and has been threatened with scissors. These things don't just go away and while your first priority is to your child I do think we all as members of society have a duty to assist helpless children that are possibly in danger.

[Rhone]

As long as I continue to keep my daughter away from them, should this be the only intervention I do about these troubled youths?

What else can you do? Unless you have a reason to believe the parents are abusing them, then there is not much point in calling CPS.

Ultimately, for the children's behavior to change, their parents are going to have to start actively enforcing rules with them (a positive reinforcement program that rewards them with privileges for good behavior, and takes those privileges away for a set amount of time for bad behavior, is generally the most effective and psychologically healthy way to go). But this needs to be done strictly and consistently--which means, really, only the parents have the power to make it happen. So, if the parents don't see their children's behavior as a problem... then there's not much you can do, unfortunately.

[Blee O'Myacin, BSN, RN]

When my son was in first grade, he was the victim of a violent act from a classmate. We had no idea that this other child was a potential threat. You know about this child. Move the earth to get your daughter removed from this classroom - because the school will not do anything to protect her, just like they did not do anything to protect my son before or afterwards. This happened 3 years ago and my son is still not very trusting of his peers and sees a professional. This is not the time to be polite or worry about possibly offending anyone. Protect your child. I would give anything to be able to go back and prevent my child's attack (yes, he was injured. yes, we pressed charges).

Take Care,

Blee