would you cross a picket line????

teeituptom, BSN, RN · Jul 28, 2002

Howdy yall

from deep in the heart of texas

Peeps what have you been smokin.

Cognitive Dissonance, hmmmmm, will it help my golf swing. I doubt it. And earning money is not a moral issue, you are right there. It supports my family and pays for my golf and life enjoyment. Nothing wrong with that. I have always said my family and my golf come first. My expectation is to be a great nurse and Im a damn good one. And I expect to earn the respect and the wages that I work for. Nothing wrong with that, hmmmmmmm. Then you chat about my career moral strucure, again who sets these mores. Also who determines I am outside the moral boundaries of society..Are we talking about the vast silent mahority, the vocal majority.. the right wing majority..The minority majority or the majority minority. Who sets these boundaries??? Is it just because I disagree with you. You are making all these assumptions and you dont know even the basics about me.

Let me introduce myself to you. I am just a simple old country boy with simple values in life. These include taking of my wife and 7 children. They include making the house payment on time. Keeping my insurance to provide for my family up for when and if I should leave unexpectedly. I always buy my gas at Texaco, you can trust your car to the man who wears the star. I exercise daily and I play a lot of golf. That is all there is to it. Life is simple untill you choose to clutter it up. I choose to do what is right for my family and myself and my golf game.

teeituptom, BSN, RN · Jul 28, 2002

Howdy yall

From deep in the heart of texas

-jt, let me clarify something for you. I am not out to disparage you or your attempts at providing for your family.

From this debate we can assume 2 things. One, there are people who are willing to walk the picket line. And two, there are people who are willing to cross that line.

Somewhere someone wrote beware of drawing a line in the sand, because surely someone is going to cross it. I dont remember who said that. But it fits in with this debate, so I thought I would throw it in.

You have your right to picket, and I have my right to cross that line. Its as simple as that.

By the way you stated that my actions indicate a feeling of "the hell with you"... To be quite honest I never feel that way about anyone..I really keep my sentiments very simple and clean. So you are a little out of line there.

Thank God Im a Countryboy

EEEHHHAAAWWWWWWWWW

Furball · Jul 28, 2002

"Life ain't nothin' but a funny, funny riddle"

teeituptom, BSN, RN · Jul 28, 2002

Howdy Yall

From deep in the heart of texas

You tell em furball

LasVegasRN · Jul 28, 2002

Interesting debate!

live4today, RN · Jul 28, 2002

originally posted by peeps mcarthur
dear tom,

you must realize that as a human being you have limitations set upon you by societal expectations of moral behavior. persons within those moral boundries will expect that you join them in order to be counted as part of society.

i've been thinking about you tom. please consider:

cognitive dissonance:

leon festinger (1957),
refers to an individual's motivation to reduce the discomfort (dissonance) caused by two inconsistent thoughts. we might feel uneasy about a discrepancy that exists between our attitudes and our behavior. the absence for the internal justification for the difference between what we believe and what we do creates dissonance (harmon-jones & mills, 1999), psychology santrock 2000.

i think there is some dissonance your experiencing as can be evidenced by your effort to justify what you are doing outside of the moral boundries of society. earning money is not a moral issue. you must consider what is, i'm not going to draw that line for you.

"we justify the negative things we do in life. we need to convince ourselves that we are decent, reasonable human beings." and this is where i make a point i think will communicate what i see tom, "we also have a strong need to justify the effort we put forth in life. we positively evaluate goals that require considerable effort.(in your case,security for your family from an honest, hard days work) whether we reach the goals or not, we engage in the process of effort justification. the reasoning goes like this: if we work hard to attain a goal(pay our dues) but then evaluate that goal in a negative way,dissonance would occur. if we put forth considerable effort, yet still do not reach the goal, (an honest days wages) how could we reduce the dissonance? we could convince ourselves that we did not work as hard as we actually did, or we could say that the goal was not all that important in the first place." santrock (2000).

i believe that your goal in the begining was to just be a great nurse, and earn a secure living for your family, while promoting the profession with your expertise and work ethic. i think you believed that(as we all did at one time) you would work your way up and someday earn the respect and wages you deserved.............and when that didn't happen within an acceptable time in your career moral structure started to collapse against the pressure of constant effort justification............. or rather dissonance.

"our most intense justifications of our actions take place when our self-essteem is involved" (aronson, 1999)

anyone that knows me will tell you that i don't take to psychology much, but when i read this i was so encouraged by what it said that i just had to share the insight.

wassup peeps!!! :)

i embrace completely this article of thought that you have here, and support the value of what it is saying to mankind wholeheartedly as i am a firm believer in standing on what i believe in, even if i am the only one standing in the end!!!

i also believe in keeping my moral content in line with my thought processes because i cannot live my life in dissonance...confusion...discomfort...pain within and a false smile without. so, thank you for reminding me of why i am determined in my life to remain the me that i am and always have believed in regardless of whether anyone else believed in me for what i chose...and still choose...to believe or not. :kiss

Peeps Mcarthur · Jul 28, 2002

Tom posted

And I expect to earn the respect and the wages that I work for. Nothing wrong with that, hmmmmmmm.

Where does the respect come from?

Could it be a measure of moral choices, or the false praise of desperate administrators?

Could the ungodly amounts of money the suits are paying be the point of cognitive dissonance? The two inconsistant thoughts causing the dissonance would be interfering with the advancement of nursing, of which your family depends on since you are a nurse, while telling yourself that it's in support of your own family.

That's conflicting because your family counts on your profession's growth for support in the future and you are directly affecting it while claiming you are supporting it.

Strike money won't last forever. Eventually you will only have nursing, in the take-it-or-leave-it form it is now.

Therefore there is cognitive dissonance.

-jt · Jul 29, 2002

yes TT, we already know there are people who will strike & other people who will cross the line. What we're talking about here is what it costs the striking RNs when other RNs do cross their line & if its right for other RNs to do that to them.

I say no it is not right. We are fighting to improve at our workplace the very same things other RNs are complaining about too. Other RNs should be the first to understand what we're dealing with. How can they complain about short staffing & low pay & anything else in their states & then come up here & help our employer keep us in those very same conditions that they complain about at their own hospitals? Its hypocritical.

They know that their presence hurts us & will jeopardize the outcome for the striking nurses, so they should keep away. Instead, they descend like vultures & care not one iota about the effect their actions have on us - as long as they financially gain from it themselves - which is just what your posts have been saying all along. But it is one thing to work for your money. Its another to thing to earn your money by knocking down a colleague.

Yes TT, we know people will choose to do this. The question is it right. No. And its nothing to be respected either so I hope none of them are holding their breath waiting for that.

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-jt · Jul 29, 2002

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What you dont seem to want to understand is that when RN strikebreakers come marching in - this is exactly what they do.

And they interfere - relieving pressure on the hospital from having to settle the issues. And they cost us deals for improvements that we could have had if they werent there & the pressure was on the hospital. This is also what strikebreakers are not interested in knowing about. So yes it is basically saying "the hell with what affect it has on you nurses on strike - it serves me well & thats all that counts"

Youre correct in one thing - you have the right to do whatever you want. In every state in this country, except Vermont, you even have the right to drive right past an accident victim on the highway & not offer any assistance. You can drive right on by - looking out only for yourself, & let the victim bleed to death - its legal but that doesnt make it right. And I doubt anyone would respect you for it either.

>

They do. Like most strikebreakers, you just refuse to see it.

Yeah I have the right to picket - but dont you get it? If you crossed my strike line & are in there doing the work thats keeping the hospital in business, they are not paying any attention to my picket - so what good is it? Youre hurting me by being there. And youre saying youll do it anyway because it puts money in your pocket. That is telling me to go to hell.

Another thing - we're not "hard core union supporters" - we're RNs-who-wont-take-the-abuse-anymore. And we wonder why all nurses arent fighting back too instead of just complaining & running off to where they can make an extra buck at another RNs expense?

Why dont strikebreakers just stay in their own states & do what they need to do to make the working conditions & pay better there so they dont have to prostitute themselves across state lines?

Why do you continue to strike bust when you know you are hurting the RNs who work there? Your taxes & just because you can are not good enough reasons to do that to another RN.

(there is no reason good enough)

I wont wait for a response - I notice you havent answered any of my questions so far.

Peeps Mcarthur · Jul 29, 2002

JT posted

Youre correct in one thing - you have the right to do whatever you want. In every state in this country, except Vermont, you even have the right to drive right past an accident victim on the highway & not offer any assistance. You can drive right on by - looking out only for yourself, & let the victim bleed to death - its legal but that doesnt make it right. And I doubt anyone would respect you for it either.

Good point JT. Laws govern some measure of morality, but there are instances when laws protect your right to be immoral.

teeituptom, BSN, RN · Jul 29, 2002

howdy Yall

from deep in the heart of texas

Well howdy again -jt, my thats some interesting and utterly boring rhetoric you are continuing to reiterate. Who writes this stuu for you. You need to send him to George W Bush. His rhetoric could add some spicing up. You stated " I wont wait for a response-I noticed you havent answeres any of my questions thus far" I answer anything that is asked. And when asked if I will cross picket lines, the answer is yes. Thats the only question you have asked. The rest is long winded flatus, High octane methane.

And now you try to throw in excerpts regarding the good samaritan laws. Or is that an attempt to spice up your rhetoric.

Life is simple. Some people go on strike. And some people cross the picket lines. Neither of these actions are new. But somehow you seem to feel that rhetoric and mob politics are going to affect changes. Maybe we ought to lynch a few of those CEOs and scabs while were at it. Sorry your way hasnt proven particulalry effective in the past and I dont think your way is the answer now.

what you dont seem to see is that the whole situation is all of us, CEOs included. It will take all of us working together to facilitate change. But when you divide people up into differing opponent camps, you are sure to fail.

There is one reason good enough for strike busting, and that is..... It is what is right for me and my family in accordance with our beliefs and values. That is all the reason needed.

Remember this is a free country. The right of freedom of choice. The pursuit of happiness.

You and PEEPS talk about the immorality of my choices. Who has elected you as judge, jury and executioner. Who has decided that only your views on morality are the ones that count.

One of the greatest men of the last century once said. "Ask not what your country can do for you, but ask what you can do for your country" of course he went on later to blow things and called himself a jelly filled donut. But nobody is perfect.

teeituptom, BSN, RN · Jul 29, 2002

Howdy Yall

From deep in the heart of texas

Well its yalls turn now PEEPS. Are you still smokin that stuff?????? You keep harping on cognitive dissonance. And again you throw in immorality. I simply reply, who are you to set the standards of immorality? Just because my beliefs and life style are a little different from yours I am Immoral. At least I have never tried to compare the naturalness of breasfeeding to the naturalness of masturbation like you have. That one still escapes any definition I can come up with.

You stated that, "laws protect your right to be immoral" in reference to me, I presume. The last time I looked those laws are called The Bill of Rights.. maybe you should familiarize yourself with the actual meaning of those rights.