CRNA Mills?

Nursing Students SRNA

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While perusing these forums over the years, I've seen mention of "CRNA mills" or "puppy mills" in regard to low quality CRNA programs either pumping out students with the bare minimum qualifications (cases, etc) or simply failing students out after they've already paid a great deal of money. For example, this post (though a few years old), mentions the states of Florida and Texas as being contributors to hosting these "CRNA mill" programs.

So, does anybody have any insight into exactly which specific programs these are? I've noticed a common theme on this forum in regard to people not mentioning the name of their program whether good or bad which, I think is a disservice to both a good program (should someone want to apply there), and to prospective students who might be looking at a bad program who could otherwise be saved the time, effort and money if students and/or CRNAs of such programs could simply state "Yes, I attend[ed] CRNA program XYZ and it's not good because..."

For what it's worth, I live in Florida and am mainly looking at programs here. One can only deduce so much information from visiting a program's website so, I'm looking for some "real talk" with names of both good and bad programs in my state. I've spent the past few years learning all I can in the ICU to build a solid foundation on which to hopefully build a solid career as a future CRNA. It goes without saying that I want to be a part of a program that challenges and molds me to be a confident and as much of an autonomous provider as the field allows. Thank you and I appreciate any and all input!

On 4/26/2020 at 12:48 AM, CRNAwanna-be said:

I'm also unable to send DMs, but I'd really like to know your personal opinion. To be honest, I created an account here in hopes of getting in contact with you. I have submitted apps to MTSA, TCU, and FIU, and would really appreciate any insight you have on these schools (good or bad). If you can DM me, please do.

Would you mind sharing the advice? I still cannot send DMs

Specializes in CTICU.
On 5/7/2020 at 7:18 PM, WhiteCatBlackCat said:

Would you mind sharing the advice? I still cannot send DMs

I was hoping for a list of schools that were considered mills, but unfortunately I didn't get a direct answer. I think it's because the answer isn't a direct one to begin with. I was told to look on facebook for SRNA and CRNA groups where I could do some digging and figure out which schools acted like mills. So far, I've found that they don't really exist today like they did 10 years ago. A lot of the schools that had bad reputations have since been transformed under new directors and presidents. A lot of this transformation is due to the amount of social media exposure, online reviews, and blog sites available at our fingertips that basically eliminate a schools ability to rob students without getting exposed.

One awesome group I found on FB is "ICU Dreaming About Anesthesia." This page is run by a CRNA and it is a massive community of RNs in the same boat. you can search for keywords and read about what people are saying about your school. Also, if you post in the group, a ton of people will respond and help you find the answers you need.

Specializes in anesthesiology.

I really don't think there are true "diploma mills" in CRNA world like there are for online NP schools. Sure there are some lower-level programs, but there is no part-time option and you still have to take boards. I imagine even some of the less desirable schools aren't particularly "easy" to get through. The amount of knowledge and clinical experiences needed in a set amount of time requires some degree of rigor.

On 5/8/2020 at 10:19 PM, CRNAwanna-be said:

I was hoping for a list of schools that were considered mills, but unfortunately I didn't get a direct answer. I think it's because the answer isn't a direct one to begin with. I was told to look on facebook for SRNA and CRNA groups where I could do some digging and figure out which schools acted like mills. So far, I've found that they don't really exist today like they did 10 years ago. A lot of the schools that had bad reputations have since been transformed under new directors and presidents. A lot of this transformation is due to the amount of social media exposure, online reviews, and blog sites available at our fingertips that basically eliminate a schools ability to rob students without getting exposed.

One awesome group I found on FB is "ICU Dreaming About Anesthesia." This page is run by a CRNA and it is a massive community of RNs in the same boat. you can search for keywords and read about what people are saying about your school. Also, if you post in the group, a ton of people will respond and help you find the answers you need.

Thanks! I'll look into that group

There definitely are diploma mills. Usually it’ll be larger programs. The largest CRNA program in the country is rather notorious for its quality of graduates.

well base on the responses. why dont we rephrase this one. if given the chance to go to any CRNA school due to good quality of program and their clinicals. Which school would you choose?????

3 hours ago, Gravitas said:

There definitely are diploma mills. Usually it’ll be larger programs. The largest CRNA program in the country is rather notorious for its quality of graduates.

This statement contradicts itself.

I would recommend looking into schools with as little clinical sites as possible and examining those clinical sites because even within the same program the clinical experience can vary widely because some students get lucky to go to certain sites. So in my experience, I think it is best to look for programs with only a few clinical sites at awesome hospitals WITHOUT anesthesiology residents.

Like someone else said, I don't think any CRNA school is on the level of some of those online NP programs.

I don't think there are a mills anymore because the COA now decides how many students each school can accept. NONE of the programs are easy. It's not like some of those online NP programs.

There are no part-time CRNA schools and there never will be, in my opinion.

Specializes in Anesthesia.
23 hours ago, Gravitas said:

There definitely are diploma mills. Usually it’ll be larger programs. The largest CRNA program in the country is rather notorious for its quality of graduates.

I graduated from the largest program in the country. I was fortunate enough to be placed at a site with one of the busiest trauma centers in the state that didn’t have anesthesia residents. I specifically chose the site because I worked there in the ICU. We took overnight call and the CRNAs supervised 2 SRNAs at the same time. We were on the schedule and basically used as staff. The place was apolitical. CRNAs, SRNAs, and MDs all worked together and I learned so much. I was there for 12 months, and did 4 months worth out specialty outrotations, which I actually preferred.

We had a ton of autonomy. When I graduated, I felt ready for independent practice and felt very prepared for neuraxial, and moderately prepared for peripheral nerve blocks. Granted, some of the newer blocks I never got to learn. It was a grind, but now that I’m practicing, the transition to practicing as a CRNA has been fairly easy for me, So I wouldn’t have done any other program.

We had students rotate from both big name programs, and another program that’s known for producing independent practitioners. It was evident when they rotated to our site that they weren’t used to the autonomy that we were allowed, and weren’t clinically the strongest. I can’t speak to other big name programs, but mine was the best experience I could have had.

I think it’s unfair to group all big programs together. I was fortunate because I knew people in the program, so I did research and knew what I was getting myself into.

my advice would be to do your research and talk to alumni or current SRNAs on their clinical and didactic experience and then go from there. Don’t pay attention to the US News rankings.

On 6/2/2020 at 6:17 PM, lionsimba said:

well base on the responses. why dont we rephrase this one. if given the chance to go to any CRNA school due to good quality of program and their clinicals. Which school would you choose?????

There are a lot of good programs. Most are smaller, and most are West of the Mississippi.

Of course, you can start with either military program-they are top notch.

Sacred Heart in Washington is an amazing program. Very small.

Midwestern in Arizona gets their students outstanding clinical rotations.

Kaiser School of Anesthesia is very polished, runs very smoothly, and has a huge health system to get your cases with zero resident involvement.

I have in the last 5 years had the pleasure of working with a large number of USC grads (University of So. California). I know nothing about their actual program, but the product they are producing in absolutely top notch.

I also know first hand that there are some really amazing, quality grads coming out of VCU. That program is VERY strong. They really distinguish themselves among the east coast programs, IMHO.

I hope this list helps a little. Not sure if you had a program you really wanted to attend that is on this list or not. It is surely not scientific or comprehensive, but the programs mentioned have worked very, very hard at producing quality, independent, high functioning CRNAs. I am sure there are many others, but the above mentioned schools have a well deserved reputation of quality.

Specializes in Anesthesia.
1 hour ago, BigPappaCRNA said:

There are a lot of good programs. Most are smaller, and most are West of the Mississippi.

Of course, you can start with either military program-they are top notch.

Sacred Heart in Washington is an amazing program. Very small.

Midwestern in Arizona gets their students outstanding clinical rotations.

Kaiser School of Anesthesia is very polished, runs very smoothly, and has a huge health system to get your cases with zero resident involvement.

I have in the last 5 years had the pleasure of working with a large number of USC grads (University of So. California). I know nothing about their actual program, but the product they are producing in absolutely top notch.

I also know first hand that there are some really amazing, quality grads coming out of VCU. That program is VERY strong. They really distinguish themselves among the east coast programs, IMHO.

I hope this list helps a little. Not sure if you had a program you really wanted to attend that is on this list or not. It is surely not scientific or comprehensive, but the programs mentioned have worked very, very hard at producing quality, independent, high functioning CRNAs. I am sure there are many others, but the above mentioned schools have a well deserved reputation of quality.

I mostly agree with this, but I'm a little on the fence about USC. I currently work with a lot their grads and a lot of their SRNAs rotated to my main clinical site when I was a SRNA. What some of their SRNAs told me is they're forced to start a different rotation every month and most of the sites are heavily supervised where CRNAs are either limited or they don't even have CRNAs. Just when they get comfortable and people start trusting them and allowing them to do things they have to go to a different site.

I definitely agree with every other school listed, mainly Kaiser. Their students were pretty good. I was fortunate enough to rotate to a military hospital for a month, and they had some very very strong CRNAs. Only downside was at this particular place the military anesthesia residents got all of the bigger cases, but the CRNAs were very very independent.

Specializes in anesthesiology.
On 6/2/2020 at 5:26 PM, Gravitas said:

There definitely are diploma mills. Usually it’ll be larger programs. The largest CRNA program in the country is rather notorious for its quality of graduates.

Which one would that be? This sounds a bit trollish...

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