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CRNA Mills?

Posted

While perusing these forums over the years, I've seen mention of "CRNA mills" or "puppy mills" in regard to low quality CRNA programs either pumping out students with the bare minimum qualifications (cases, etc) or simply failing students out after they've already paid a great deal of money. For example, this post (though a few years old), mentions the states of Florida and Texas as being contributors to hosting these "CRNA mill" programs.

So, does anybody have any insight into exactly which specific programs these are? I've noticed a common theme on this forum in regard to people not mentioning the name of their program whether good or bad which, I think is a disservice to both a good program (should someone want to apply there), and to prospective students who might be looking at a bad program who could otherwise be saved the time, effort and money if students and/or CRNAs of such programs could simply state "Yes, I attend[ed] CRNA program XYZ and it's not good because..."

For what it's worth, I live in Florida and am mainly looking at programs here. One can only deduce so much information from visiting a program's website so, I'm looking for some "real talk" with names of both good and bad programs in my state. I've spent the past few years learning all I can in the ICU to build a solid foundation on which to hopefully build a solid career as a future CRNA. It goes without saying that I want to be a part of a program that challenges and molds me to be a confident and as much of an autonomous provider as the field allows. Thank you and I appreciate any and all input!

There are over a 100 programs in America. I'd suggest you ask what people consider the best programs instead of asking people which ones they think should be avoided. I don't think it is appropriate to ask or say such things about programs on a public forum

Edited by Phish16

babyNP., APRN

Specializes in NICU. Has 13 years experience.

Why not? It’s a free market. Why would you want to protect a bad school? A school should be able to stand on its reputation.

Hk45, BSN

Has 8 years experience.

Current SRNA here. When you mentioned "CRNA puppy mills," several programs jumped to mind but I prefer not to disclose publicly. DM if you'd like my personal opinions about malignant crna programs d/t program culture and/or quality of students produced.

Hi Phish, thanks for your response. I'm aware that there are many programs in the country and my intention is not just to find out which programs should be avoided. Certainly, I want to hear about the great ones too. Maybe I shouldn't have used the words "good or bad" when referring to programs. I do not want to bash any programs, as yes, that would be inappropriate.

However, one has to wonder and should inquire when a school is referred to as a "mill" or when an SRNA or CRNA mentions certain states that have "mill-like" programs. Why is this? What constitutes a programs being described a "mill?" Is the program accepting 50-60 students with the intention of weeding half of them out. Does the program require the bare minimum number of cases? When working on a case, is the student 1 of 3 in the OR with minimal hands-on experience? Is the bar lowered in regard to the minimum passing average one needs to graduate? These are just a few examples that I could think of that might describe a program as being a mill.

18 minutes ago, Hk45 said:

Current SRNA here. When you mentioned "CRNA puppy mills," several programs jumped to mind but I prefer not to disclose publicly. DM if you'd like my personal opinions about malignant crna programs d/t program culture and/or quality of students produced.

Hi Hk45, thank you! I've been looking over AllNurses for years but have never posted. That being said, I can't message you d/t not having the required number of posts. I'll message ya when I've met the minimum!

Hk45, BSN

Has 8 years experience.

1 minute ago, stevena9 said:

Hi Hk45, thank you! I've been looking over AllNurses for years but have never posted. That being said, I can't message you d/t not having the required number of posts. I'll message ya when I've met the minimum!

I know during the application process, it's basically a "somewhere, anywhere take me please!" type of feeling. BUT after witnessing and hearing the type of treatment my friends and former colleagues have experienced at some of these places....please know that you are also interviewing these places: for them to prove themselves a good fit for YOU.

Red flag: fully front loaded programs.

Ask for how many students they enroll per cycle and how many clinical positions they have open. These numbers don't usually match, which means they intend to admit more students than available clinical capacity.....=intentional failing out of students but thanks for the tuition $$$.

2 hours ago, babyNP. said:

Why not? It’s a free market. Why would you want to protect a bad school? A school should be able to stand on its reputation.

Because schools can change for the better or worse. Every student at almost any school could have bad things to say. I just don’t think random comments talking bad about a school is a good or helpful thing to do.

I don’t think there are any CRNA mills around much anymore because the COA has started putting a crackdown on how many student a program can accept.

2 hours ago, stevena9 said:

Hi Phish, thanks for your response. I'm aware that there are many programs in the country and my intention is not just to find out which programs should be avoided. Certainly, I want to hear about the great ones too. Maybe I shouldn't have used the words "good or bad" when referring to programs. I do not want to bash any programs, as yes, that would be inappropriate.

However, one has to wonder and should inquire when a school is referred to as a "mill" or when an SRNA or CRNA mentions certain states that have "mill-like" programs. Why is this? What constitutes a programs being described a "mill?" Is the program accepting 50-60 students with the intention of weeding half of them out. Does the program require the bare minimum number of cases? When working on a case, is the student 1 of 3 in the OR with minimal hands-on experience? Is the bar lowered in regard to the minimum passing average one needs to graduate? These are just a few examples that I could think of that might describe a program as being a mill.

If you’re wondering about I’d they kick students out only after getting a good portion of money from them, look up or ask for the schools’ attrition rates.

As far as quality, ask for the school’s first time pass rate for boards.

I don’t know if any schools that have more than one student per patient. I have heard of this happening in the past but since the COA limits the amount of students it doesn’t happen anymore. I’m currently at a school that I read on here that would do that but they accept half the students they used to and I’ve never seen this. I also do clinicals where we sometimes see 2-3 other schools and I’ve never seen them do that either.

I don’t think any schools in Florida have an absolute stellar reputation like some of the ones in other states. But USF has a pretty good Program and the clinical site at Tampa General Hospital is a level 1 trauma Hospital and they have no residents to compete with. I don’t go to USF but I’ve done a lot of clinicals at this hospital. USF also has an amazing sim lab.

I truly believe the education you get to be prepared is based on how much you study and Want to learn. Good luck

Tegridy

Specializes in Former NP now Internal medicine PGY-1.

If a school of any profession is not great and there is evidence of it by all means say it on a public forum. We rate our peanut butter that we spend 2 bucks on yet it is frowned upon to rate a 100k+ degree.

what am I missing?

1 hour ago, Tegridy said:

If a school of any profession is not great and there is evidence of it by all means say it on a public forum. We rate our peanut butter that we spend 2 bucks on yet it is frowned upon to rate a 100k+ degree.

Sure, if you have first hand current experience in the program. But most that bash other schools only go by what they heard. For example, I am in a program that used to accept 50 twice a year. They now only accept 25 twice a year. It wouldn't make sense to bash a program that is making changes and you have no first hand knowledge of.

Look at the attrition rates, first time pass board rates, class size, clinical sites, case numbers...This can only be found by talking to staff or students at the actual schools, not some public forum going by "I heard this or that"

Edited by Phish16

HandsOffMySteth

Has 3 years experience.

It is also against the forum rules...

Posting Information:

"Although the Constitution of the US guarantees that "Congress shall make no law abridging the freedom of speech", ALLNURSES.COM, INC is not Congress. Freedom of speech rights do not extend to ALLNURSES.COM, INC. This Terms of Service (Guidelines) governs the behaviors and activities of the members. If you choose not to follow the guidelines agreed to during registration, the result is disabling your account.

You are not allowed to post libelous information about a person, school, instructor, health care facility, or entity. Any post which is violative of any law or is invasive of a person's privacy will be taken down immediately."

Got to be careful.

Tegridy

Specializes in Former NP now Internal medicine PGY-1.

I think people are confused with slander and truthful reviews. I can’t go out and say jiff peanut butter is full of cat turds and dog dookie but if Something bad was wrong with it and I’m truthful with evidence one can state what’s wrong. No one is talking about slandering a school. But if somewhere has weak curriculum, poor pass rates, and abusive instructors one should mention it.

libel means untrue. If it’s true by all means spread the word. University is not the ring headed angel people make it out to be. They need to be under the radar also.

Edited by Tegridy

HandsOffMySteth

Has 3 years experience.

1 hour ago, Tegridy said:


libel means untrue. If it’s true by all means spread the word. University is not the ring headed angel people make it out to be. They need to be under the radar also.

That is the legal definition. The common one does not state that it must be an untruth. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/libel

Of course the forum rules do not place emphasis leaving room for uncertainty.

1 hour ago, Tegridy said:

I think people are confused with slander and truthful reviews. I can’t go out and say jiff peanut butter is full of cat turds and dog dookie but if Something bad was wrong with it and I’m truthful with evidence one can state what’s wrong. No one is talking about slandering a school. But if somewhere has weak curriculum, poor pass rates, and abusive instructors one should mention it.

libel means untrue. If it’s true by all means spread the word. University is not the ring headed angel people make it out to be. They need to be under the radar also.

It says later in the terms of service “No potentially libelous information about specific schools, instructors, or health care facilities/entities should be posted in these forums.”

most negative things said about schools are “potentially libelous.” And good luck finding a student that wants to hurt their own school’s reputation unless they were kicked out.

Edited by Phish16

Tegridy

Specializes in Former NP now Internal medicine PGY-1.

11 minutes ago, Phish16 said:

It says later in the terms of service “No potentially libelous information about specific schools, instructors, or health care facilities/entities should be posted in these forums.”

most negative things said about schools are “potentially libelous.” And good luck finding a student that wants to hurt their own school’s reputation unless they were kicked out.

Just have to have data to back it up. If these forums are more strict then people should post it on reddit or something or a rate your school website. I think this forum is more strict since 1. They are funded by advertisements and 2. The forum got chased down by some school in the past, I can’t remember it’s name though. They do have some school specific forums on here and if one has negative aspects to talk about then they are free to as long as it’s true. I know it’s 2020 and we are only allowed to say “good things” but letting university run amok is silly.

I mean if you don’t want to state negatives then don’t. The rest of us will as we see fit.

Edited by Tegridy

HandsOffMySteth

Has 3 years experience.

I agree that it is important to bring to light the wrong doings of the bad schools. I would be cautious about what you choose to say if you wish to go that route. A court may be the entity that decides what is "truth" and what is not in such a case.

The forum rules state that there is no freedom of speech here and for good cause. Even if a school that is mentioned in an unfavorable light ,and rightly so, decided to drag everyone to court on such an issue it would be detrimental.

Once again, I would just choose your words wisely when speaking negatively about such an entity. I would PM someone if I had a bunch of negative stuff to say about a school that I felt they needed to know. Just my 2 cents.

Tegridy

Specializes in Former NP now Internal medicine PGY-1.

4 minutes ago, juniper222 said:

I agree that it is important to bring to light the wrong doings of the bad schools. I would be cautious about what you choose to say if you wish to go that route. A court may be the entity that decides what is "truth" and what is not in such a case.

The forum rules state that there is no freedom of speech here and for good cause. Even if a school that is mentioned in an unfavorable light ,and rightly so, decided to drag everyone to court on such an issue it would be detrimental.

Once again, I would just choose your words wisely when speaking negatively about such an entity. I would PM someone if I had a bunch of negative stuff to say about a school that I felt they needed to know. Just my 2 cents.

It’s pretty hard to bring someone to court for a bad review. Otherwise everyone who complains on yelp about XYZ business would be in court LOL.

I don’t think all nurses can release who we are on the forum unless there are threats of violence anyway

A few years ago some educational program attempted to find out the true identies of allnurses posters for what I believe was a lawsuit due to some information about the program that was posted on this site. They were some of my favorite contributors too. For anyone who does post about a specific school, very careful about how things are phrased.