Note: This might seem like a strange topic, but seeing as how that is nothing new coming from the source, I'll go ahead anyway.
As nurses, we are trained to do everything we can to save someone until it's no longer feasible or unless doing so would go against a patient's wishes, such as performing CPR for a patient with a a DNR/DNI.
However, theoretically, anyone of us could "code" at anytime--and this includes at work.
For those who are full codes, this wouldn't create any ethical issues. You would simply perform CPR on your coworker as you would anyone else.
However, for those who have DNR/DNIs, issues could come up if coworkers are unaware such orders exist. How do we ensure that these coworkers have their wishes respected should the need come up?
For example, I am legally a Full Code but am wanting to pursue a DNR/DNI. Based on my age and no apparent health issues, I have a feeling most of my coworkers would automatically assume I am a Full Code should circumstances arise, however.
What is the best way to inform my coworkers that under no circumstances should anyone provide CPR to me?
For the rest of you, how do you ensure your coworkers' wishes for CPR or no CPR are ensured? Have you ever experienced such an ethical dilemma at work?
You picked the wrong field to work in if you don't want to be resuscitated. But, if you really don't want to be resuscitated, you should avoid dying at work.
Additionally, in my state, anyways, there is a DNR form that can also be laminated and worn around the neck, and the reasonable person standard is to presume that as long as I am wearing it, YOU keep YOUR HANDS OFF OF ME.
Thats the Law. Per the Florida DOH. Heres the pdf and the website.
Silverbells, I hope this helps clear this up for you. ❤️
And I truly hope the fella saying "don't die at work then" finds it in his heart to start to recognize patient rights, because the moment he feels YOU need BLS, you are automatically HIS patient, and he MUST respect your rights.
Why am I in the wrong field if I do not wish for CPR? Must all nurses maintain a Full Code status?
7 hours ago, Gillyboo said:
you would be guilty of battery. And sued.
Do you force feed your patients too?
Honestly.I hate to break it to you, but Battery is illegal. You have no right to impose your personal wishes onto anyone else.
6 hours ago, Gillyboo said:
YOU keep YOUR HANDS OFF OF ME.
6 hours ago, Gillyboo said:
And I truly hope the fella saying "don't die at work then" finds it in his heart to start to recognize patient rights,
Okeedokey, settle down.
ER nurse with a background in ICU, frequently designated as the hospital's RN code team leader. I think you would be hard pressed to find anybody more supportive of enforced DNR orders than me. Sometimes doing my job feels more like an assault than a resuscitation, and my biggest fear for the patient is ROSC. It is not that unusual for the whole team to be relieved when the code is called.
Like most nurses, my wife and family know exactly how I feel about futile resuscitation and care. Both for me, and for my patients.
Trust me- if you are DNR, and there is a structure in place to prevent resuscitation, I, and everybody I work with, are happy to let you continue being dead.
But, the reality is that I have never seen any system in any hospital that would effectively facilitate this for staff, or for any outpatient- which is essentially what a staff member is once they become dead, or make a reasonable attempt at becoming dead. Unless your place of work has a robust structure in place for staff DNR, you are going to get worked. Truly sorry about that. Outpatient codes are generally a bit chaotic as it is, a nurse dropping in the middle of a shift is going to be even more so. And even if there your wishes are well known, etc.., it will probably take few minutes to sort out. By that time, your fate is very likely sealed, one way or the other.
I wish you both the best of luck in creating a system in which a sudden cardiac arrest of a working nurse can be managed without calling a code. I, and 99% of the staff who actually work codes, would stand behind it all the way.
In the meantime, I stand behind my claim. When you surround yourself with professionals trained in BLS/ACLS, you run the risk of being resuscitated.
I have a feeling that we’re about to embark on a philosophical journey on the meaning of the word ”real”, but I’ll take that risk. I have to admit that I’m surprised that you consider any of this real.
It isn't that I consider all online conversations to be "real". I just know that it could be real, someone might be crying out for help, and I want to respect that.
It isn't that I consider all online conversations to be "real". I just know that it could be real, someone might be crying out for help, and I want to respect that.
Exactly. Which is why I have repeatedly suggested the OP should get some help. Sometimes people need permission to do that even from strangers on the net. Completely mystified why other posters think it's the wrong thing to do.
Trust me- if you are DNR, and there is a structure in place to prevent resuscitation, I, and everybody I work with, are happy to let you continue being dead.
I have never seen any system in any hospital that would effectively facilitate this for staff, or for any outpatient
Unless your place of work has a robust structure in place for staff DNR, you are going to get worked. Truly sorry about that. Outpatient codes are generally a bit chaotic as it is, a nurse dropping in the middle of a shift is going to be even more so. And even if there your wishes are well known, etc.., it will probably take few minutes to sort out. By that time, your fate is very likely sealed, one way or the other.
I wish you both the best of luck in creating a system in which a sudden cardiac arrest of a working nurse can be managed without calling a code. I, and 99% of the staff who actually work codes, would stand behind it all the way.
In the meantime, I stand behind my claim. When you surround yourself with professionals trained in BLS/ACLS, you run the risk of being resuscitated.
I really appreciate everything you just said. For many reasons, actually.
First, I appreciate how much you are expressing your desire to respect someone else's DNR order. That alone, brings me a mountain of new respect for you.
Second, I appreciate your honesty in letting me know that there obviously some serious flaws in the health care system, when it comes to recognizing a DNR.
One thing I also noticed though, is that you are also still unaware of the official DNR card that a person can laminate and hang around their neck. This is an official notice and by law, I don't understand why any facility would consider attempting to resuscitate someone who is wearing one.
You asked the question. You are also a DNR. So if you want to know how to ensure that your needs are met, I.e. that no heroic measures are taken, and you are allowed to just stay dead, then laminate that card and wear it around your neck. Make your coworkers aware that this card does not expire (clearly there are plenty of people on here who believe they do!) And that the reasonable person should assume that by you making the daily decision of actively WEARING that card, you don't want to be coded.
I also would suggest going to HR, and your nurse educator, and ask for them to create a training course on what is and is not acceptable as far as DNR orders, be that inpatient, outpatient, or staff or contractors. Some cards are not legal documents, for instance, and therefore they cant be honored.
Just like learning to call patients Mrs GillyBoo and Mr GillyBoo (LOL just using an example) OK maybe Mr or Mrs Smith would be a better one, those who care deeply about our last wishes have to sometimes fight to ensure they are respected, and we won't know what our coworkers don't know, until we train them properly on such a topic.
You deserve to have your DNR card, hanging from and even behind your ID badge, respected. This is how you can get the ball rolling on that. Better DNR training sounds like an across the board need, for many nurses.
I really appreciate everything you just said. For many reasons, actually.
First, I appreciate how much you are expressing your desire to respect someone else's DNR order. That alone, brings me a mountain of new respect for you.
Second, I appreciate your honesty in letting me know that there obviously some serious flaws in the health care system, when it comes to recognizing a DNR.
One thing I also noticed though, is that you are also still unaware of the official DNR card that a person can laminate and hang around their neck. This is an official notice and by law, I don't understand why any facility would consider attempting to resuscitate someone who is wearing one.
You asked the question. You are also a DNR. So if you want to know how to ensure that your needs are met, I.e. that no heroic measures are taken, and you are allowed to just stay dead, then laminate that card and wear it around your neck. Make your coworkers aware that this card does not expire (clearly there are plenty of people on here who believe they do!) And that the reasonable person should assume that by you making the daily decision of actively WEARING that card, you don't want to be coded.
I also would suggest going to HR, and your nurse educator, and ask for them to create a training course on what is and is not acceptable as far as DNR orders, be that inpatient, outpatient, or staff or contractors. Some cards are not legal documents, for instance, and therefore they cant be honored.
Just like learning to call patients Mrs GillyBoo and Mr GillyBoo (LOL just using an example) OK maybe Mr or Mrs Smith would be a better one, those who care deeply about our last wishes have to sometimes fight to ensure they are respected, and we won't know what our coworkers don't know, until we train them properly on such a topic.
You deserve to have your DNR card, hanging from and even behind your ID badge, respected. This is how you can get the ball rolling on that. Better DNR training sounds like an across the board need, for many nurses.
Much love.
I would possibly question someone's mental health if they go to such measures re a DNR. I would find it quite bizarre if a healthy person had such an obsession. Now, if it's a person who has the potential through illness etc, I can understand that. But, a working nurse feeling the need to address colleagues etc, I would say a mental health assessment might be called for.
You picked the wrong field to work in if you don't want to be resuscitated. But, if you really don't want to be resuscitated, you should avoid dying at work.
Silver - I think this poster was just being a bit sarcastic and over the top. I think you missed it! And took the comment literally.
It isn't that I consider all online conversations to be "real". I just know that it could be real, someone might be crying out for help, and I want to respect that.
5 hours ago, Wuzzie said:
Exactly. Which is why I have repeatedly suggested the OP should get some help. Sometimes people need permission to do that even from strangers on the net. Completely mystified why other posters think it's the wrong thing to do.
I don’t know if it’s right or wrong or if that is even the relevant measurement for evaluating a response in threads like this one. I think that at the end of the day all you can and should do what feels right for you.
I guess the ”right” response would be the one that is helpful and enables positive change. Identifying what that is, is perhaps not always easy.
Surfin USA
105 Posts
Additionally, in my state, anyways, there is a DNR form that can also be laminated and worn around the neck, and the reasonable person standard is to presume that as long as I am wearing it, YOU keep YOUR HANDS OFF OF ME.
Thats the Law. Per the Florida DOH. Heres the pdf and the website.
Silverbells, I hope this helps clear this up for you. ❤️
And I truly hope the fella saying "don't die at work then" finds it in his heart to start to recognize patient rights, because the moment he feels YOU need BLS, you are automatically HIS patient, and he MUST respect your rights.
http://www.floridahealth.gov/about/patient-rights-and-safety/do-not-resuscitate/faq-page.html
dnro-faq.pdf