Convicted of murder as a teen and now a nurse

RNsRWe, ASN, RN · May 22, 2015

Like times 1000.

Thank you. I was on quite the roll....! :)

klone, MSN, RN · May 22, 2015

What does Christianity have to do with this thread? Why not all religions?

Because someone else brought up Jesus.

Farawyn · May 22, 2015

Because someone else brought up Jesus.

brownbook asked WWJD?

I said I thought He would walk the walk and have cold blooded teen killer turned RN take care of His family, ya know, to set an example...

Then the Christian thing, then the human trafficking/American history thing.

This has been quite the thread!

RNsRWe, ASN, RN · May 22, 2015

Forget about religious leanings, as this is NOT about forgiveness.

It's about the safety of any human being in the dependant care of someone who has proven herself to hold a total disregard for human life. As in....stabbing someone to death because she didn't like what the victim said.

Or is everyone who holds the belief that "forgiveness" is supreme also of the belief that this could never, ever, POSSIBLY ever happen again (because she's now all rehabilitated and stuff)?

She got released. She didn't get a new psyche.

brandiep1982 · May 22, 2015

To be honest I am torn here. There are some excellent points on both sides of this topic. I am leaning towards: A teenage killer who served their time and have become a productive part of society should be allowed their position in society... with limitations. I totally get the idea that this, now, woman was a teenager with a less than fully developed brain. I do not think she should have been tried as an adult. I do think this woman should be given some compassion. Arguments that may ask "what about the victim?" really are not relevant in the here and now. HOWEVER, two things: 1) if a person is capable of this type of break once, there is no telling when it could occur again (if at all), this is not a risk I would be willing to take with a nurse, doctor, police officer, paramedic, or any other health care worker; 2) this person is obviously still "paying" for her crime. This is the most natural consequence of her actions. I will not join in the ranks of people attacking her, but it really is completely understandable. Death incites fear. Death of loved ones incites rage, fear, sadness... People have a right to be so guarded against such a person.

Horseshoe, BSN, RN · May 22, 2015

As I stated earlier, at least 2 different women have been named as the one,
they can't both be the convicted teen...perhaps neither one is.
Would you want your acquaintances wondering about YOU, thinking that YOU had committed a heinous act?
There is so much conflicting information out there, so many anonymous "experts" who claim first hand knowledge that can't be verified
We don't even know if this woman is actually working as a nurse or not.
Whether a person who has killed can be redeemed. and placed in a position of trust, is a legitimate topic, though I think it's been pretty much exhausted. The rest is just gossip.

The only two names I have seen are the same person...the name which the perpetrator legally changed her name to, which is public record, and the second name she acquired when she married, also public record. Regardless, no one here is outing this person. No new information will be forthcoming on this thread, certainly nothing that is not already out there at a click of a mouse. The damage as to revealing the name has already been done so this thread isn't perpetuating anything.

Apart from the specific situation originally referenced, I actually think the general question asked on the thread is a very relevant and thought provoking one. I'd actually never considered that this could be a possibility, and I have appreciated the various opinions on the subject.

guest449786 · May 22, 2015

Death incites fear. Death of loved ones incites rage, fear, sadness... People have a right to be so guarded against such a person.

I don't think most nurses have that difficult of time with the idea or concept of death. For me, personally, it's the idea of murder that invokes rage, etc. Death is natural and being murdered by someone should not be confused as being the same. I would request that I or a family member be assigned to a different nurse and would question the overall judgement of the facility that would hire someone who was convicted of murder and who is now trusted to provide life saving care. We may all have a trigger that would cause us to murder, possibly, but this person has proven that they not only have the capacity, but they carried it out.

This person has the right after serving their time to earn a living, and to be a licensed professional is a privilege, not a right. I question why this individual chose nursing as a profession in the first place. Why would they choose to be around such a vulnerable population?

brandiep1982 · May 22, 2015

I don't think most nurses have that difficult of time with the idea or concept of death. For me, personally, it's the idea of murder that invokes rage, etc. Death is natural and being murdered by someone should not be confused as being the same.

When I said "death" I meant it in the context of this post... which involves murder. I don't think becoming a nurse makes anyone any better at dealing with death. How an individual deals with death has more to do with their personality, not their job description.

RNsRWe, ASN, RN · May 22, 2015

I really can't abide the idea that because she was a teen when she committed murder, she was functioning with "less than a fully developed brain". If my son at 15 did this, I sure wouldn't be thinking "he's just a child with a less than fully developed brain". I'd be wondering how the hell I raised a murderer! I believe that compassion is the driving force behind such thinking (taking the responsibilty away because of the age) but compassion to a fault is where this line of thinking is going.

She was of normal intelligence with every expectation that what she was doing was wrong. She was fully cognizant of the fact that stabbing the girl to death would mean a murder had been committed.

She knew it was a crime. She JUST.DIDN'T.CARE.

I DO agree that she should be afforded the ability to become a productive member of society. But there are LOTS of ways to do this without having the ability to hurt other people so very readily in her grasp. She has a right to support herself and her family. She does NOT have the right to be given the kind of trust an RN typically should expect. She has NOT earned that.

macawake, MSN · May 22, 2015

...this is NOT about forgiveness.
It's about the safety of any human being in the dependant care of someone who has proven herself to hold a total disregard for human life. As in....stabbing someone to death because she didn't like what the victim said.

(partial edited quote, removed the part about religion as it's not what I'm responding to).

I understand the concern that you and other posters have voiced about allowing a convicted murderer become a nurse.

I haven't said in my previous posts if I think they should be able to, or not. I don't believe that it's a question that can be answered with a general yes or no. I think it very much depends on the circumstances of each individual case.

This is a slight tangent but I'm curious if it's the complete disregard for human life that's important or what the end result by chance turned out to be. Do you and other posters feel that a person who was convicted for a DUI at say age 17 should be automatically disqualified/denied if they apply for a nursing license at age 40?

Drunk driving is showing complete disregard for human life. Most of the time it's not skill or careful planning that prevents a drunk driver from killing another human being, it's luck. I'm not equating the two crimes, but the disregard for the life and safety of others is pretty much the same in a non-premeditated homicide and drunk driving.

Or is everyone who holds the belief that "forgiveness" is supreme also of the belief that this could never, ever, POSSIBLY ever happen again (because she's now all rehabilitated and stuff)?

"Never, ever, possibly ever"? Of course not. That would be a silly claim. No one can make that guarantee. No one can guarantee that you or I won't come completely unglued tomorrow and do something atrocious. I don't think it's very likely, but it's impossible to know for sure.

From what little I know about this case (and I don't claim to know enough to be certain), I think it's very unlikely that this woman poses a homicidal threat to her patients (if she is indeed a nurse), thirty years later.

Most murderers actually "only" kill once. Also, the fact that the crime was committed at a very young age and another thirty years have passed when presumably this individual didn't kill again, is a strong predictive factor that she won't.

Another thing, look at what seemed to be the motivation behind the crime and the modus operandi. For those who think it's likely that this person might/could use her position as a nurse to kill patients. Well, multiple stabbings would hardly go by undetected. The person would have to completely change MO to the traditional insulin or potassium type killings favored by nurse nutjobs. Do you guys realize how very rare that would be?

The original crime seems to have been motivated by a very young person's sense of inferiority towards or a feeling of being rejected by a popular class mate. This is not at all the same dynamic commonly seen in nurse-patient relationships where the nurse is the person in the power position (they actually are, Press-Ganey notwithstanding).

If (the general) you insist on worrying about a new violent crime being committed some thirty years later, I'd be more concerned with a more similar dynamic like the perception of being bullied, taunted or rejected by a person in power (supervisor or senior coworker), not a patient.

I debated with myself on whether I should post again in this thread as I think it's in poor taste to keep speculating about a serious crime committed by a very young person. As I said before, I don't think that anything good will come from it. It feels a bit like a witch-hunt. The reason I chose to post despite my misgivings, is that I think that the fears expressed in this thread are somewhat exaggerated and blown out of proportion.

She got released. She didn't get a new psyche.

In a way she might have gotten a new psyche. I would expect that she has matured, both emotionally and brain physiology wise. She was fifteen. She is now about forty-five.

I don't know about you (the general you all :)). I didn't kill when I was fifteen and I didn't drive drunk. But I sure did a lot of things I wouldn't do today. As an adult I think things through and evaluate the consequences of my actions before I take said actions. As I've matured, I take fewer risks. I've learned to hold my tongue when it's the smart or responsible thing to do.

She knew it was a crime. She JUST. DIDN'T. CARE.

You say this with the conviction of someone who was present at the scene and privy to the perpetrator's state of mind, thoughts and feelings. I don't understand how that's possible.

I assume she was aware that stabbing someone with a knife is a crime. Most fifteen-year-olds do. But we don't know what she was thinking at the time and what she might have cared about or not. We don't know about her capacity for self-control at the time or her ability to foresee consequences.

A few random thoughts of my own:

As a teenager I thought I knew the answer to most things. The world was full of absolutes, things were either black or white. As I've aged (and hopefully matured) I see more shades of grey (no, no.. not those :laugh: ) and realize that human beings are complex. Most of us have both "good" and "bad" in us. I am more liable to see different sides/aspects of a situation.

In all honesty I'm more scared of some of the nurses I've met in real life than I would be of the person discussed in this thread. I worked with a nurse who thought that the difference between milli and micro was a factor of 10, and the same between a gram and a mg.. (How she managed to graduate I will never know). Another was one of the most mean, judgemental and just plain ugly persons I've ever met (and remember, I've met more than my fair share of criminals). Anyway these coworkers are just the ones that I happened to notice. What do I know about the rest of them...

It's been suggested in this thread that actually knowing/being close to a victim of violent crime would make me change my opinion. My view on that is that being forever angry, resentful and longing for vengeance only adds to and perpetuates the trauma and I hope I would have the strength to not let those feelings take over my life, and instead find a way to forgive, move on and find happiness again. I wish the same for all other victim's loved ones.

RNsRWe, ASN, RN · May 22, 2015

I understand the concern that you and other posters have voiced about allowing a convicted murderer become a nurse. ..
....

Good food for thought, and I appreciate that you took the time to write it.

Regarding the DUI....good question, and a reasonable analogy. My answer? I just don't know. I'd have to work that through for much longer than it takes me the time to type this :)

As for her being "only" 15 and me not being able to be perfectly certain as to her motives, etc, I'd have to say that while I understand where you're coming from, I cannot agree on that. I cannot accept that a 15 year old who stabs someone to death (thought out enough in advance to have that knife kinda handy) didn't realize the ramifications of that action. How can I be 100% certain of what her mindset was when she did it? I can't be. But I do believe that it isn't much of a stretch to accept that she did it without caring what the consequences were. So yes, I suppose I can safely say she "didn't care". That really is nothing anyone can be 100% certain on; my gut tells me she set out to murder the girl she didn't like....and she did just that, as demonstrated by the evidence that convicted her in the first place.

While I know that the world is not black and white, and rarely are there decisions and situations that lead us to black/white resolutions, at some point we each have to go to what we feel is most just. Some of us will conclude that the just thing would be to forgive, forget, move on. Others....forgive, don't forget (which in itself has variable meanings!).....and for still others, no forgiveness and keep her at arms' length (at least).

A witch hunt? I do stand by my statement that speaking about this on a public message board is not violating anyone's rights, nor privacy: everything being discussed is being discussed BECAUSE it is in the public's purview already. NO secrets here; if embarrassment is created by the situation being known, again, this is not a reason to not allow civil and thoughtful discussion. I suppose I care FAR less about the embarrassment of an individual who has committed murder of another human being than the value of the open and honest discussion surrounding it. Our actions do follow us, even though sometimes we wish they wouldn't. I have NO doubt that someone who has violently murdered a teenager wishes very much it would "just go away". But....that's not a right she has.

However, that said, I will give much of what you said thought, as it's worthy of that consideration :)

mimimar · May 22, 2015

If a convicted of that king is an RN the're shouldn't be any problem to stop people from received their license from BON.best of luck.