Circumcision Debate

RNSue · Jul 29, 2001

Just two thoughts on this subject. #1-In the March issue of Nursing 2001 in the Clinical Rounds section, there is a small article about pain experienced in infancy(in rats, at least) and how researchers have found that pain inflicted soon after birth may permanently rewire the still developing nervous system and cause them to be hypersensitive to pain as adults. #2-I just finished reading a book called As Nature Made Him, the Boy Who was Raised as a Girl. Twin boys were scheduled to be circumsized at about age one due to tightness of the foreskin. The first one had the procedure and it was botched and lost most of his member, the second baby's was cancelled. The first boy had an operation to change him into a "girl". This has been a common practice for years for kids born with ambiguous sex organs or damaged sex organs at an early age and only recently has been rethought. I don't have any kids, but if I did, my sons would not be circumsized. I very recently read somewhere that the Jewish leaders are taking a second look at this procedure.

nurs4kids · Jul 29, 2001

Originally posted by RNPD
jenniferj, I think you are confusing opinions with attack. Naturally, we respect your opinion that circumsicion is barbaric to you and you therefore chose not to have your sons circed. But to say " And maybe you think they won't ever remember the pain that was caused for them, but you are talking about trust vs. mistrust, and what a way to teach them from day 1 or 2 that mom will not protect them.", is an attack on the beliefs of others who disagree with your opinion. Would you like to hear that if one of your sons develops a penile disorder at the age of 40 requiring an unpleasant intervention, he will hate you as his mother forever because he was not circed? Of course not, that is an attack, not an opinion. When we are speaking professionally, our opinions must be colored by fact, any off the wall comments can not be taken seriously. And to say that a newborn will learn that his mom won't protect him because he is circed is off the wall. When your little ones got their heels stuck for PKU testing, did they think that mom let this happen and I will never forgive her? How about if your 2 y/o needs a T&A? Or your 10 y/o develops a hernia needing surgical intervention? Do you see what I am getting at? Your implication was that those of us who chose circs are bad parents, forever coloring our kids lives with vague feelings of fear that we will not protect them. I think that's what nurs4kids took exception to, as did I when I first read it. [/b]

Thank you, RNPD, that is exactly what I have said from the beginning. Perhaps with your wonderful examples, I too may be understood. Again, a very well articulated post!

Jennifer,

I never once quoted you correctly??? I cut and pasted from your post, honey :)

levirn · Aug 4, 2001

Wow what a passionate discussion. Well here's my 2 cents worth on circs.

While working as a family medicine nurse in a busy 5 physician group that also did OB, I helped with lots of circs. From the beginning I was appalled at the strapping down and inflicting of pain on infants. None of the docs I worked with could give me a compelling medical reason for this procedure and I wondered why so many parents chose to have it done. I saw parents I knew were really struggling financially, scrape together the $150-$200 to pay for the procedure. The docs I worked with didn't recommend circumcision but neither did they discourage it. They used everything from emla to lidocaine locals and I was not impressed with the pain control of any one of these methods. Consequently, when I had my own son I chose to leave his foreskin intact. His dad is not circ'd but so far at age 5 he hasn't noticed this difference.

My reasons:

1. Not one of the doctors I worked with nor the OB, Urologist and Pediatricians I polled could give me any compelling medical rationale for the circ.

2. I couldn't have handed over my days old infant to be strapped to that board.

3. I figure the foreskin was God's standard equiptment for males and who am I to mess with that?

As a nurse, I have always kept my PERSONAL opinion and choice to myself. No matter how much I disliked the procedure.

However, when pressed by patients about what I chose for my son and why, I simply stated that the doctors I spoke with didn't give me any convincing reasons to have it done, but added that they should talk to THEIR doctor about it because it was a very personal decision.

Judging from the heated debate here, this remains a very touchy subject and this reinforces my goal to be nonjudgemental and supportive of my patinent's choices even if I personally don't agree with them.

Thanks all for your views.

levi

Russ Dowling · Aug 8, 2001

Okay, everyone. For the record, I'm against circumcision. The remark regarding son's memberes having to look like their father's makes no sense to me. Having read all the responses, I'm going to throw something else into the mix. Suppose a new parent wants their newborn baby girls labia minora cut off. Now what do you do? Is that any different than circumcising boys? I know all about the hygiene argument so it doesn't need to be repeated. What about the practice among some African tribes of circumcising girls by removing part or all of the privy parts? Is that mutilation? It's part of their initiation into adulthood.

MarilynM · Aug 8, 2001

Ouch..Mutilation? I don't believe that is an appropriate term, however, My eldest son turned 19 on Sunday and my other son is 17.5. I had them both Circ. That was long before I had even entertained thoughts of becoming a Nurse. In my heart I can only hope they used something like elma cream, but I'm not sure that was even available then. So, I will not worry about having them hate me for it. I would make the same choice today, but w/more questions and assertions prior to procedure. In my opinion, if my ptnr was ANY MORE SENSITIVE,...We wouldn't ever have relations...They have Viagra for impotence, but not a whole lot for PE!!!!!! (and I didn't mean pulmonary emboli)

I have also seen some nasty infections one recently that appeared to be psuedomonas, and poor man's member would get soooo swollen that I KNOW it had to be painful..Couldn't seem to get Dr. real concerned about it. He also had a Foley...One funny thing that was never passed on in transfer or on RN Assessment, I figured it out though...Man had had a penile implant, but noone ever bothered to mention it.. What a strange case. God Rest His Soul..........

Last parting comment...When my youngest breast-fed son was gaining weight quite well, his little glans member would slip back inside what appeared to be foreskin and I actually worried that procedure was done incorrectly...Upon queries to Dr. He assured me that it would all be fine, and in my ignorance I thought maybe it should be repeated.. That's when he said at this point we would have to do surgery under anesthesia and so would have to wait til 2 yrs. old. Thank-god, he was right, I didn't push, just maintained good hygienic practice, and as he grew, everything would up as it should. Baring any barbaric practices, I would prob still choose circ. today. Has nothing to do with what father looks like, just my belief that it is easier to maintain hygiene, and decrease disease processes and spread of infections STD's etc. But I could be wrong...That's what I like about being human. We can't and don't have to always be right, except in our practice, We'd better do our darndest to know what we're doing, or find someone who does.........Learning never stops,,,At least I hope not.. :cool:

Q. · Aug 8, 2001

JenniferJ-

I "started" it? Because I didn't agree with you and I agreed with Tracy and her comments??? Oh......my.......god.

:rolleyes:

You are not participating in a debate anymore Jennifer. You are purposely looking for attacks or comments on your character when really what is going on is someone is merely challenging you and your beliefs or statements. Tracy never called you ugly, stupid, fat, naive, worthless, unsafe, your mamma wears combat boots - nothing like that. Tracy used intelligence and objectivity to respond to your pretty strong opinions. I agreed with her. That does not mean that I was insulting you and that does not mean that Tracy was insulting you either. What that means Jennifer, is that we simply don't agree with you!

You also cannot accept Tracy's apology graciously and like a professional with differing opinions. What a truly sad state indeed.

MQ Edna · Aug 8, 2001

When my son was born I didn't have him circed. I was living in my parents house and my mother was adamantly against it. When he was about two months old, his foreskin popped back all on his own. I did not force it, was actually just changing his diaper and cleaning him and POP it went! From that time on, he had constant problems. I was religious about bathing and keeping him clean, and it didn't make any difference. He had infections and pain almost all the time. I remember once when he was a baby, I was trying to clean him and it hurt him so badly he was shaking all over. At a young age he knew how to clean himself properly, although I always supervised. I can't tell you how many times he had to soak in a warm tub to relieve the pain.

When he was five and still had not outgrown it (and I was a little more able to think for myself) I took him to a urologist. Apparently when the foreskin popped back, there were some adhesions which left little pockets that easily became infected no matter how well we cleaned. So, at the end of kindergarten, my son was circumcised on an outpatient basis. This was on a Friday. The doc said he would be able to go back to school the following Monday. He did not go back to school for two weeks. He was so swollen and painful and his urethra would scab over and when he had to pee it hurt because he couldn't and then the force of his urine would break the scab. He would be screaming and bleeding and peeing and I would be hysterical. He couldn't pee without taking a warm bath first to loosen the scab. Talk about mutilation! This was one of the most traumatic times in his life, not to mention mine. We both still remember it vividly. That being said, after a long horrible recovery, he has had no problems since.

Because of my experience, if I ever have another child and it is a boy, that child will be circumcised the second he is born! LOL Not that early, but you get the picture. I would never wish what we went through on another child. I certainly am aware that not every child goes through what we went through, but no way in hell am I taking the chance!!

Laura

nurs4kids · Aug 9, 2001

Susy,

I bet you also got a nasty little email telling you what a pathetic person you are!!! LOL Now sistah, put down the knife

Tracy

Brenda Braun · Aug 9, 2001

I remember working in the emergency room one night and having a five year old child come in crying and unable to walk due to a circumcision (his foreskin had become infected). To me, it broke my heart to see it and fearful that my son would ever have to go through the same, I had him cicumcised. I do think that now, after 10 years that I would reconsider that decision based on the fact that I believe female genital mutilation is very close to the same thing. I do see that many may get it done "to look like daddy" or for religious reasons. It is ultimately a very personal decision. :confused: BB

kimtab · Aug 24, 2001

About the hypersensitivity to pain thing: I did read a study that concluded that Male infants who were circ'ed showed heightened pain response to vaccinations at subsequent well-baby visits than did male infants who were intact. If I wasn't so lazy I would find the link, sorry.

As a new mother in the hospital I had not given a single thought to circ'ing my baby until my OB asked me if I wanted her to. It was the wrong time to have make that decision I'll tell you. I was hesitant, but in my postpartum haze, I said yes- thinking, "well, I want him to fit in with everyone else". Had I never been asked? It never would have been done. Had I had the presence of mind to ask at least a few questions about the whole thing? It never would have been done. The only thing I got to read was the consent form. I have no idea what it said. I don't even know if anesthesia was used. I feel guilty for making what I consider to be the wrong decision without even asking a single question. I also feel anger at a healthcare system that allowed me to make that decision without making any attempt to educate me about the procedure. If you are a nurse who is involved with the patients who are making this decision, I hope you are offering information. If they aren't interested, fine, but please offer. Perhaps my nurses thought it was none of their business, but I do wish one of them had started a discussion with me about circumcision.

I don't feel that the increased risk of UTI's or Penile cancer justifies removal of the foreskin. Neither is common. Girls get UTI's too, and they don't have foreskins. And cleanliness? While it may be true that an adult male's circumcised member is more easily maintained, this is not necessarily true of the infant's circ'ed member. Circ'ed males collect crud beneath the corona, if the circ is a "long" one then the remaining foreskin must be retracted and meticulously cleaned. Difficult on a wriggling infant. My son also has recurring adhesions, this is very common according to my Ped, who likes to forcefully separate these at every well-baby visit (I put a stop to that this last time though.) Causing more pain and the risk of infection and scarring! Lovely, eh? No one told me anything but to keep the vaseline gauze on it for a week after I left the hospital. No one told me about adhesions or how to prevent them.

Ah, If I knew then what I know now. Everybody else knows what I know now though:) My son came out perfect and exactly as nature intended him. Who was I to decide that a part of his body was unnecessary and should be removed? If I have another son, I will not circ.

Kim

mcl4 · Aug 25, 2001

[

As a new mother in the hospital I had not given a single thought to circ'ing my baby until my OB asked me if I wanted her to. It was the wrong time to have make that decision I'll tell you. I was hesitant, but in my postpartum haze, I said yes- thinking, "well, I want him to fit in with everyone else". Had I never been asked? It never would have been done. Had I had the presence of mind to ask at least a few questions about the whole thing? It never would have been done. The only thing I got to read was the consent form. I have no idea what it said. I don't even know if anesthesia was used. I feel guilty for making what I consider to be the wrong decision without even asking a single question. I also feel anger at a healthcare system that allowed me to make that decision without making any attempt to educate me about the procedure. If you are a nurse who is involved with the patients who are making this decision, I hope you are offering information. If they aren't interested, fine, but please offer. Perhaps my nurses thought it was none of their business, but I do wish one of them had started a discussion with me about circumcision.

I believe you made some valid points here. I wish I had taken more time to educate myself and my husband before signing consents for my three sons to be circ. However, because of the short hospital stay, I think the education should be done prior to delivery or during the prenatal visits.

kennedyj · Aug 25, 2001

Originally posted by lalaxton
I did not have my son circumsized. Neither my father nor my 3 brothers were either and no one had any problems. My husband, however was circ. at 12 years old. I see no need for my son to look like his dad. If I had to have a mastectomy at an early age should I think my daughter should have one to look like me??

My father always said, teach your child to keep himself clean and he will have no problems with infections. Besides there is growing evidence that men are more sexually sensitive if they have not been circumsized. Any comments from the guys out there?

I was mutilated by my parents but have probably considered myself avereage in the sex arena. One day I saw a bottle of viscous lidocaine at a friends house. I took some home and tried it at the next wild occasion. Boy I tell ya it works great. Put some on inside a condom about 10 minutes and during foreplay and wow when the pipe is being laid down you can see smoke a flyin without any fear of preemies!

Hypersensitive or not Lido Viscous style cures all.

J