Change in BSN requirements

ZASHAGALKA, RN · Aug 21, 2005

BSN entry will not be the standard anytime soon. All the BSNs complaining that we need a standard entry into nursing: we have one - ADN/ASN program.

Your BSN exceeds the 'standard' - congratulations.

Not being seen as 'professionals' has more to do w/ care plans and diagnoses that are a 'foreign language' to our peers. We hide what we communicate because we dare not cross lines - we strive to stay in 'our place'. Then we complain that other healthcare professionals - who can only make sense of the graphics (read the part done by our non-licensed counterparts) part of our documentation - don't take us seriously. Why should they, when we are too busy making sure we stay safely 'in our place'.

You can complain all you want that degree status keeps us from being professionals. Until there is a paradigm shift that allows nurses to step out of the shadows and actually say what we mean and take credit for what we actually do, you could have a doctorate and still be 'just a nurse' in the eyes of the people you are so desparately trying to impress.

Until nursing throws off the 'theories' that have pigeon-hold us as glorfied servants, no amount of education will be sufficient.

And putting down ADNs to support your point of view will not only not change that, it's sheer hubris. In a world where 'profession' is a wish list, you are no more a 'professional' nurse than I. And no less.

~faith,

Timothy.

NurCrystal22 · Aug 21, 2005

I agree with Timothy here. I currently have a practical license. Tuesday I start school for my ASN, and after that I'll work on my BSN and Masters. But, I don't think I'll "feel" any different. I know I'll have more responsibilities as far as things I will be able to do. However, it will not make me feel MORE professional to say that "I have a Masters degree" verses "I have a practical license". I will still be a nurse.

It seems that people are getting upset because the feel they are being "put down" because they don't have a BSN. Well, in my state it doesn't matter. Nurses with an ASN or BSN are paid the same amount and have the same responsibilities. Why? Because with either degree, they are still an R.N. Still a nurse.

ANYWAYS, enough with the seriousness, for me at least. Don't get mad you all, you know if you're professional and you know if you are a good nurse no matter WHAT type of education you have. And believe me I've seen it during school and out in "the real world".... there are some nurses with "top notch" education that don't know anything and vice verse. Don't let your feelings get hurt. :)

~Crystal

Thunderwolf, MSN, RN · Sep 23, 2005

Totally agree, Tim, in alot of ways. And the debate goes on...and on...and on...until BSNs outnumber ADNs, then the standard may possibly change.

ADN :deadhorse BSN

But, I too don't see this happening soon either. The nursing school waiting lists for both are a mile long. "Professional" practice in many fields begins at the Masters level. Nursing is the exception to that rule. No wonder others (education, counseling, psych, social work) are envious that an ADN may make more than a Masters in another field. But, Nursing as a field of STUDY/Science wants to be SEEN as MORE professional by the nature of higher degrees/licenses like these other professions. Nursing as a field envies the degrees. The other fields envy our income. No, the debate will not go away...not any time soon.

------------------------------------------------------

BSN entry will not be the standard anytime soon. All the BSNs complaining that we need a standard entry into nursing: we have one - ADN/ASN program.
Your BSN exceeds the 'standard' - congratulations.
Not being seen as 'professionals' has more to do w/ care plans and diagnoses that are a 'foreign language' to our peers. We hide what we communicate because we dare not cross lines - we strive to stay in 'our place'. Then we complain that other healthcare professionals - who can only make sense of the graphics (read the part done by our non-licensed counterparts) part of our documentation - don't take us seriously. Why should they, when we are too busy making sure we stay safely 'in our place'.
You can complain all you want that degree status keeps us from being professionals. Until there is a paradigm shift that allows nurses to step out of the shadows and actually say what we mean and take credit for what we actually do, you could have a doctorate and still be 'just a nurse' in the eyes of the people you are so desparately trying to impress.
Until nursing throws off the 'theories' that have pigeon-hold us as glorfied servants, no amount of education will be sufficient.
And putting down ADNs to support your point of view will not only not change that, it's sheer hubris. In a world where 'profession' is a wish list, you are no more a 'professional' nurse than I. And no less.
~faith,
Timothy.

Otessa, BSN, RN · Feb 10, 2006

"It is a lot more difficult to be accepted into the ADN program than it is the BSN. Also, the BSN colleges are not as demanding as the others. For example, if I was not to pass two classes whether it be the first semester then the forth, the ADN program will kick me out. Then I would not be able to reapply for 3 years. "

I don't know what state that you live in but I believe it is difficult to get into ANY nursing progrm right now.

The program I attended( I graduated in 1992) was a research-based program that had a LOT of clinicals-I was quite prepared to care for patients when I graduated. My BSN degree has afforded me better pay and increased opportunities. They would simply have looked over my resume and not looked any further with an ADN. This is my experience.

lindarn · Feb 10, 2006

Without intending to do so, you have just angered approximately 60% of the nurses, in this country. I began my nursing education at a diploma school. I ended up receiving an associate degree and went on to obtain my BSN. The arugment, concerning the three entry levels of nursing has been on going since before my time. And it will continue because nursing is so fragmented, in its education process. I wonder how many nurses would accept a two year graduate to educate their children or grandchildren? Not many, I venture. Why then, are they so insistent at maintaining a three entry level in nursing. Fear? Lack of funding? Lack of time?
I am not here to debate the value of an associate vs a BSN education. However, I agree with you, we have stagnaneted in resolving this issue. And nothing will change because we generally do not value education, in the way that other professions do. Instead of moving forward, we insist on going along our merry way and continue to complain of how unprofessionally we are treated by other health care professionals.
Grannynurse :balloons:

AMEN. I have said the same thing in all of my posts. The public equates worth with education. Nurses just don't get it. I also started out as a Diploma grad in 1975. It did not take long for me to figure out who was at the bottom of the food chain- the nurses. In Washington State, and many others across the country, PTs and Pharmacists have gone to a Doctorate as entry into practice and OTs have gone to a Masters.They all manage to find a way to attend college for 5-8 years, complete a one year internship, to give them the chance to learn the practical skills of their profession. No one is expected to hit the ground running the day after they graduated. And surprisingly, there are no sob stories, and no whining and complaining about it from the potential students. There are record numbers of applicants to these programs. Here is Spokane, WA, Physical Therapists earn $80,000 a year, (working in a hospital, not running a free standing PT business), twice what an RN makes. In last Sundays paper, there was an ad for a hospital in Yakima, WA, offering sign on bonuses of $20,000 for Physical Therapists.

Increase the education, decrease the number of individuals graduating from school, and by the doctrine if supply and demand, there members are highly prized, and rewarded. Compare this to nursing where new grads appear every six months from "ABC Community College", and the market is flooded with another group of suckers. There is no reason or incentive to retain the older, (read, "expensive"), experienced nurses and we are shown the door in many ways.

I agree with granny nurse. How many of us woud accept a HS diploma, and a six month certificate as adequate to teach in the public schools? Also, teachers are rewarded with a higher salary with every college degree that they earn. Regardless, if they are doing the same job as another teacher. The biggest proponents of the "well, if you are doing the same job, you shouldn't be paid more than someone else, who has a lesser degree", are the hospital administrators.They play on nurses insecurities, and play one against the other-"those BSNs think that they are BETTER THAN YOU ARE, and they want MORE MONEY BECAUSE THEY HAVE A DEGREE, AND YOU DON'T". Meanwhile, the newest, brightest, BSN grads, soon leave the profession due to no respect or reward for their education. And with the job getting more stressful by the day, the BSNs say, "I don't need this, I can do better". And they leave. And the hospital administrators are laughing all the way to the bank. They didn't get where they are with an Associates Degree in business, did they? They know the value of an education. It worked for them, didn't it? Why shouldn't it work for you? Because, if they paid the BSNs more, the same thing would happen. We would start to ask for more money, and that is the last thing that they want. We are always apologizing for our lack of education, and thinking of ways that allow people to accept that we are professionals worthy of the respect and pay of other health care profesionals. Think about it.

Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN

Spokane, Washington

AtlantaRN, RN · Feb 10, 2006

Here are the class requirements to go from associates level, to BSN...

> Medical college of georgia requires 35 credit hours to obtain a BSN, where georgia state requires 56 credit hours for the RN to MSN...that sounds like a better deal to me.

edited to delete long post ...and to add link:

medical college of georgia link:

http://www.mcg.edu/son/rnbsn/index.htm

whatnext · Feb 10, 2006

How can all nurses to graduate from a BSN program when all the programs combined right now aren't putting out enough nurses? We have a shortage in my area even though there are several nursing programs here, all with waiting lists. There aren't enough instructors as it is, and people can hardly afford community college.

I have a BS in another field, and am months away from graduating from an ADN program. I plan on going on to get my MSN, but I don't think an BSN prepared nurse is any better than an ADN prepared nurse. The first two years of a BSN is usually pre-reqs, and the last two nursing classes. At my community college, you can hardly get into the program without all your pre-reqs. So most students I know went to school 1 or 2 years before the ADN program, and then 2 more years in the program, year round (no summers off for us), for a total of 3 or 4 years. Sure, we paid less, but we had great instructors that taught us well. To get my RN-BSN the classes focus mostly on management and research. So, the BSN program seems to prepare you to go into management. In NC, BSN and ADN new grads get paid the same.

As far as being respected by others, I think we need to respect our fellow nurses and ourselves before we can be respected by others.

RN34TX · Feb 11, 2006

Increase the education, decrease the number of individuals graduating from school, and by the doctrine if supply and demand, there members are highly prized, and rewarded. Compare this to nursing where new grads appear every six months from "ABC Community College", and the market is flooded with another group of suckers. There is no reason or incentive to retain the older, (read, "expensive"), experienced nurses and we are shown the door in many ways.

Now I'm finally beginning to understand where you are coming from with this comment alone. You resent the fact that "ABC Community College" is churning out so many new nurses every year who are willing to work for lower wages than what you as an experienced RN, are willing to accept.

Your theory here is that if we close the doors to all of these non-BSN schools, there will be fewer nurses period, thus driving up the demand and wages.

It sounds good in theory, but I think it would only cause employers to import even more nurses from places like Canada, India and the Phillipines, thus keeping the supply and wages in check for the hospital's benefit.

They are not going to throw their hands up and replace their ADN and LPN positions with American 20-year-BSN-veterans and give in to the wages that they will attempt to demand for their education.

The biggest proponents of the "well, if you are doing the same job, you shouldn't be paid more than someone else, who has a lesser degree", are the hospital administrators.They play on nurses insecurities, and play one against the other-"those BSNs think that they are BETTER THAN YOU ARE, and they want MORE MONEY BECAUSE THEY HAVE A DEGREE, AND YOU DON'T". Meanwhile, the newest, brightest, BSN grads, soon leave the profession due to no respect or reward for their education. And with the job getting more stressful by the day, the BSNs say, "I don't need this, I can do better". And they leave.

Hospitals don't see the value of having BSN's as staff nurses and the minimal wage differences reflect that. They will always be looking at the bottom line, and the fact of the matter is that there are people with lesser degrees who can do the same job and are willing to do it for less money.

I'm not saying that it is right, but it is the reality of our profession.

And the hospital administrators are laughing all the way to the bank. They didn't get where they are with an Associates Degree in business, did they? They know the value of an education. It worked for them, didn't it? Why shouldn't it work for you? Because, if they paid the BSNs more, the same thing would happen. We would start to ask for more money, and that is the last thing that they want. We are always apologizing for our lack of education, and thinking of ways that allow people to accept that we are professionals worthy of the respect and pay of other health care profesionals. Think about it.

I'm not understanding all of the comments from you and others who say that it's the nurses themselves who don't value education simply because we oppose eliminating non-BSN nurses.

Like I pointed out earlier, it's the employers, not us, who don't value our educations. My wage increase upon finishing my BSN is almost laughable, so obviously my employer doesn't see much value in it.

In addition, every other nurse I work with is going back to school for something. 99% of them are building upon whatever level of nursing education they have now, not leaving it for other careers.

So it's obvious to me that nurses do indeed value education. Many, many of us, have gone back to school for something higher.

Now let's talk about respect. If not more money, then where is my respect going to come from once I get my BSN?

Other "professionals"? I have friends who are teachers, and frankly, they are nothing more than education snobs. Extremely bitter that I make more than they do despite my associate degree education. I even made more than they did when I was an LPN, as I pointed out in another post.

I'm definitely not "thinking of ways that allow people to accept that we are professionals worthy of the respect" as you put it.

I'm definitely not looking for my teacher acquaintances approval once I get my BSN because I don't value the opinion of anyone who believes that anyone with less than a bachelors degree is substandard.

LPN's and ADN's are not your enemy here bringing the profession down.

Plenty of nurses of all types, including your BSN peers, who continue to accept jobs that pay crappy wages and have horrible working conditions, are helping to keep the profession down.

Cowering to family member and physician abuse every day and accepting 7-8 patient assignments (or 3 in ICU) for $25/hour is what's bringing our profession down.

ZASHAGALKA, RN · Feb 11, 2006

AMEN. I have said the same thing in all of my posts. The public equates worth with education. Nurses just don't get it. I also started out as a Diploma grad in 1975. It did not take long for me to figure out who was at the bottom of the food chain- the nurses. In Washington State, and many others across the country, PTs and Pharmacists have gone to a Doctorate as entry into practice and OTs have gone to a Masters.They all manage to find a way to attend college for 5-8 years, complete a one year internship, to give them the chance to learn the practical skills of their profession. No one is expected to hit the ground running the day after they graduated. And surprisingly, there are no sob stories, and no whining and complaining about it from the potential students. There are record numbers of applicants to these programs. Here is Spokane, WA, Physical Therapists earn $80,000 a year, (working in a hospital, not running a free standing PT business), twice what an RN makes. In last Sundays paper, there was an ad for a hospital in Yakima, WA, offering sign on bonuses of $20,000 for Physical Therapists.
Increase the education, decrease the number of individuals graduating from school, and by the doctrine if supply and demand, there members are highly prized, and rewarded. Compare this to nursing where new grads appear every six months from "ABC Community College", and the market is flooded with another group of suckers. There is no reason or incentive to retain the older, (read, "expensive"), experienced nurses and we are shown the door in many ways.
I agree with granny nurse. How many of us woud accept a HS diploma, and a six month certificate as adequate to teach in the public schools? Also, teachers are rewarded with a higher salary with every college degree that they earn. Regardless, if they are doing the same job as another teacher. The biggest proponents of the "well, if you are doing the same job, you shouldn't be paid more than someone else, who has a lesser degree", are the hospital administrators.They play on nurses insecurities, and play one against the other-"those BSNs think that they are BETTER THAN YOU ARE, and they want MORE MONEY BECAUSE THEY HAVE A DEGREE, AND YOU DON'T". Meanwhile, the newest, brightest, BSN grads, soon leave the profession due to no respect or reward for their education. And with the job getting more stressful by the day, the BSNs say, "I don't need this, I can do better". And they leave. And the hospital administrators are laughing all the way to the bank. They didn't get where they are with an Associates Degree in business, did they? They know the value of an education. It worked for them, didn't it? Why shouldn't it work for you? Because, if they paid the BSNs more, the same thing would happen. We would start to ask for more money, and that is the last thing that they want. We are always apologizing for our lack of education, and thinking of ways that allow people to accept that we are professionals worthy of the respect and pay of other health care profesionals. Think about it.
Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN
Spokane, Washington

You forgot to mention that, in the course of making 80,000 salaries, PTs have become middle management, supervising all the PT techs that NOW perform the nuts and bolts of THEIR job.

It isn't education holding us back. It's lack of a national organization that ANA will never be BECAUSE they support your position and thereby alienate 60% of the RNs they claim to represent.

It's nursing theory and other garbage that obscures our work in a language our peers not only don't understand, but don't care to.

Look, RNs are viewed as very trustworthy in poll after poll. The public doesn't know about this debate, and doesn't care. To them, RN means RN. I can see that BSN would be beneficial, but this is key, at the moment IT IS MORE DETRIMENTAL BECAUSE IT DIVIDES OUR ABILITY TO BE A UNITED FORCE.

You have decided that point C is better than point A, but you've destroyed the path through B with this arrogant and pointless debate, that, no matter how you frame it, is nothing short of name-calling.

~faith,

Timothy.

dukeRN · Feb 13, 2006

As if our profession is not fragmented enough, let's all examine the "accelerated" degree option program: that is those that allow holder's of a Bachelor's degree (be it of art or of science: even in fashion, and I am not kidding) to "earn" not only a Bachelor's degreein Nursing, but also a Master's degree, in 24 months. That being said, they graduate an NP without ever having laid hands on a patient as a professional RN. While I work along side several nurses who have chosen this "track" to becoming a nurse, and value their skill and input to our profession, my battle is not with them, it is with those who feel that the solution to the shortage is to essentially eliminate qualifications and time spent learning to be a nurse and just get people graduated and into the field. My fear is that they will eventually feel that 2 or 4 years is not fast enough, and then the general public will be at risk. Think back to the physician shortage of decades past: The AMA didn't get worked up and loosen requirements for medical school/residency: they just sat back and said to themselves and each other "wait it out, and eventually, supply and demand will work in our favor and they will pay us more. Guess what: They were right: they made a killing, and qualifications and skill of new graduate physicians did not decline, nor did the respect that the public has for their profession. Our profession continues to be self limiting and self defeating. And the "powers that be" continue to come out on top when we divide into alliances amongst ourselves to determine who of us is better, rather than how to make our profession better from this point forward. The fact that the people who take the chest x-rays in the morning make more than we do is appalling, but it is because they come by one route, no detours allowed. My hope is that our profession will be able to come to some agreement about the entry level point for an RN, grandfather the existing professionals in if relevant, and hold strong as the profession we all know we are. Cleaning up poop or not...

Thunderwolf, MSN, RN · Feb 13, 2006

As if our profession is not fragmented enough, let's all examine the "accelerated" degree option program: that is those that allow holder's of a Bachelor's degree (be it of art or of science: even in fashion, and I am not kidding) to "earn" not only a Bachelor's degreein Nursing, but also a Master's degree, in 24 months. That being said, they graduate an NP without ever having laid hands on a patient as a professional RN. While I work along side several nurses who have chosen this "track" to becoming a nurse, and value their skill and input to our profession, my battle is not with them, it is with those who feel that the solution to the shortage is to essentially eliminate qualifications and time spent learning to be a nurse and just get people graduated and into the field. My fear is that they will eventually feel that 2 or 4 years is not fast enough, and then the general public will be at risk. Think back to the physician shortage of decades past: The AMA didn't get worked up and loosen requirements for medical school/residency: they just sat back and said to themselves and each other "wait it out, and eventually, supply and demand will work in our favor and they will pay us more. Guess what: They were right: they made a killing, and qualifications and skill of new graduate physicians did not decline, nor did the respect that the public has for their profession. Our profession continues to be self limiting and self defeating. And the "powers that be" continue to come out on top when we divide into alliances amongst ourselves to determine who of us is better, rather than how to make our profession better from this point forward. The fact that the people who take the chest x-rays in the morning make more than we do is appalling, but it is because they come by one route, no detours allowed. My hope is that our profession will be able to come to some agreement about the entry level point for an RN, grandfather the existing professionals in if relevant, and hold strong as the profession we all know we are. Cleaning up poop or not...

You present a very strong arguement.

Very valid points.

lindarn · Feb 13, 2006

As if our profession is not fragmented enough, let's all examine the "accelerated" degree option program: that is those that allow holder's of a Bachelor's degree (be it of art or of science: even in fashion, and I am not kidding) to "earn" not only a Bachelor's degreein Nursing, but also a Master's degree, in 24 months. That being said, they graduate an NP without ever having laid hands on a patient as a professional RN. While I work along side several nurses who have chosen this "track" to becoming a nurse, and value their skill and input to our profession, my battle is not with them, it is with those who feel that the solution to the shortage is to essentially eliminate qualifications and time spent learning to be a nurse and just get people graduated and into the field. My fear is that they will eventually feel that 2 or 4 years is not fast enough, and then the general public will be at risk. Think back to the physician shortage of decades past: The AMA didn't get worked up and loosen requirements for medical school/residency: they just sat back and said to themselves and each other "wait it out, and eventually, supply and demand will work in our favor and they will pay us more. Guess what: They were right: they made a killing, and qualifications and skill of new graduate physicians did not decline, nor did the respect that the public has for their profession. Our profession continues to be self limiting and self defeating. And the "powers that be" continue to come out on top when we divide into alliances amongst ourselves to determine who of us is better, rather than how to make our profession better from this point forward. The fact that the people who take the chest x-rays in the morning make more than we do is appalling, but it is because they come by one route, no detours allowed. My hope is that our profession will be able to come to some agreement about the entry level point for an RN, grandfather the existing professionals in if relevant, and hold strong as the profession we all know we are. Cleaning up poop or not...

I am sorry that I did not make this point clear in my response. I fully believe in "grandfathering" in all present RNs, regardless of what their initial degree is, ADN, or Diploma. I agree with the accelerated degree programs, as well, to allow more individuals to become nurses without having to repeat an entire Bachelors program. That is what the pharmacists did when they went to a Masters as entry into practice, several years ago, and I might add that the hospitals sponsored programs to make it easier for them to go to school and earn the higher degree. Many hospitals are offering, on site "RN-BSN" programs to make it easy for the RNs to go back to school to earn their BSN. And there is always the on- line programs, which I wish had been available when I went back to school to earn my BSN (or the on site programs).

This could also be offered to LPN/LVNs to go back to school to earn their RN. I know many community colleges are offering what I know as, "one plus one" programs for them to complete the program, which also allowed the LPNs to perform their clinical in the hospital where they work.

I am not aware of a time where there was a physician shortage. But I do not agree that it will work out as well as it did for physicians. Physicians have ALOT MORE POWER, CONTROL, AND INFLUENCE, (and the money to make it happen), than nurses do, and any effort to do to them, what they are trying to do to us,(with deskilling, and deprofessionalizing their practice), will never fly. Nurses are novices in learning to control their practice, and the hospitals exploit this big time. Physicians, on the other hand, are experts at getting what they want.

Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN

Spokane, Washington