Can you be kicked out of nursing school for...

donsterRN, ASN, BSN · Apr 26, 2008

Generally speaking, and in answer to your question... yes, a nursing school can terminate a student for violation of patient confidentiality. I do not know what kind of burden of proof the school or the student would have to provide, but I know that if a school determines that a student is not performing to standards at whatever level, they can and do take steps to correct that situation. Often, that means the student is terminated.

caliotter3 · Apr 26, 2008

I know of many students who were on the hot seat in ns for unspecified infractions or failings, myself included. I had a clinical instructor one time blast me wherein she didn't state one incident of my failings nor specify anything concrete. She spent the entire session telling me how much she enjoyed failing students and how she was going to fail me and that I couldn't do anything about it. So yes, I can see where such an allegation would make a student easy fodder for elimination. The student is usually too dumbfounded to get legal representation and to demand proof. That is why many times people who post on this site are admonished to be careful about what they say. You can't be too careful.

pagandeva2000, LPN · Apr 26, 2008

You do have to be careful of what you post anywhere. We share a great deal of information and vent an awful lot, but most never mention schools, clinical sites, their location or work place because of this. I never tell my co-workers about this site, because you may be posting and responding to classmates, supervisors and patients here without realizing it; thus setting ourselves for harassment, termination or explusion.

jacqui · Apr 26, 2008

I am a UK nurse and I would say that you certainly can not be 'kicked out of nursing school' for breaking confidentuality, for many reasons, especailly as no names were disclosed. A full investigation would take place, but as always everyone had a right to a defense. A full history of events need to be taken into account. Confidentuality is also a very complex and misunderstood issue. The trouble with nurses is that they can be incorrectly advised and do not know there legal rights. That is what the unions are there for. First of all a discussion with the school of nursing - then if not resolved then union would get involved - still not resolved the NMC. However it would be highly unlikely that it would get this far.

kukukajoo, LPN · Apr 26, 2008

There have been many posts on here about breaking HIPPA rules.

I would imagine in some cases even without a name, it could be easy for some to figure out who the patient is, especially in a small town/community like where I live.

An example- self inflicted gunshot comes in. Family a wreck, many dynamics going on regarding pt hx of drug use, alcohol abuse, being abused by family member as a child.

Someone posts about all the information learned during this GS victims admission and the ensuing chaos and grief without posting the name of the person. Soon enough the name will be in the paper and others know this person well and even without the name it would be easy to figure out in this small town who they are talking about.

BOTTOM LINE: JUST DONT DISCUSS PATIENTS ANYWHERE

rph3664 · Apr 26, 2008

There have been many posts on here about breaking HIPPA rules.
I would imagine in some cases even without a name, it could be easy for some to figure out who the patient is, especially in a small town/community like where I live.
An example- self inflicted gunshot comes in. Family a wreck, many dynamics going on regarding pt hx of drug use, alcohol abuse, being abused by family member as a child.
Someone posts about all the information learned during this GS victims admission and the ensuing chaos and grief without posting the name of the person. Soon enough the name will be in the paper and others know this person well and even without the name it would be easy to figure out in this small town who they are talking about.
BOTTOM LINE: JUST DONT DISCUSS PATIENTS ANYWHERE

My dad sometimes asks me if there are any interesting patients in the hospital, and I always tell him, "Sure! Can't tell you about them, but yeah." Once in a while, a patient's story will be told in the newspaper and then I can tell people about them, but only the information that was in the media.

One of my colleagues said, "You can talk about them if you don't use names" and I said, "But it's best not to take any chances."

jacqui · Apr 26, 2008

Hi

Thank-you for that information, very interesting. Oh course patients should not be discussed on any site, I do not condone this action. However I am refering to the legal implications as a nurse and its not as simple as 'kicking someone out of nurse training', nor should it be. In small community areas, I am sure patients can be identified, but the issue remians that the nurse still needs investigating, and proper course of action indorsed. Every nurse has the right to proper investigation, further education and support if needed. I hope that my profession still holds on to that.

NewYorkGirl · Apr 26, 2008

One of my instructors used to be a chairperson at our school and she told me that if the faculty feels very "unsafe" about a certain person - maybe the student has a quick temper or mental illness or is barely passing by the skin of their teeth or is making huge safety errors during clinicals, or even is showing up intoxicated, then they will do everything in their power to make sure the person doesn't pass.

She says usually by senior year all such people have "gotten themselves out of the class" (cough cough) and are counseled into alternative professions.

Theoretically, as long as the name or identifying characteristics aren't posted then it's not really violating Hippa - I have a feeling there was something else going on that we don't know about!!

elkpark · Apr 26, 2008

Keep in mind, too, that people often post similar posts here about how unfairly they've been treated at school or at work, and what we are hearing is only their version of the story. Often, in situations like that here, when other members question the poster further because the initial story doesn't really "sound right" to us, it turns out that there had been previous problems/incidents, previous warnings, the situation was more serious than the poster first described, etc.

So, yes, it is possible to get put of of nursing school for violating client confidentiality (or any number of other reasons), but it's rarely as simple as "I did one little thing wrong and they kicked me out!!" I've taught in nursing programs, and it's not nearly as easy as students believe to get rid of "problem" students (and I mean even seriously "problem" students).

llg, PhD, RN · Apr 26, 2008

Hi
Thank-you for that information, very interesting. Oh course patients should not be discussed on any site, I do not condone this action. However I am refering to the legal implications as a nurse and its not as simple as 'kicking someone out of nurse training', nor should it be. In small community areas, I am sure patients can be identified, but the issue remians that the nurse still needs investigating, and proper course of action indorsed. Every nurse has the right to proper investigation, further education and support if needed. I hope that my profession still holds on to that.

Schools in the United States are given a lot of leeway in making judgments about their students, assigning grades, assessing qualifications, etc. The student/school relationship is not the same as a customer/business relationship. The student does not "pay for the degree" and is not entitled to receive one in the same way that a customer buys a product or service from a business. The expectation is that the school will provide education, but will not award a high grade or a degree unless, in the school's judgment, the student has performed at a certain level. It's complicated -- but the court system has generally upheld the right of a school to set standards and to fail (or dismiss) students who don't meet those standards. Remember, one of the key functions of a nursing school is to protect the public by only awarding degrees to those students who demostrate that they can practice safely and within the established standards of the profession. That is what society requires of a school.

If a school expects the HIPAA law to be obeyed, then it would have the right to dismiss a student who violates the principles of confidentiality. In most interpretations of that law, the patient's name does not have to be mentioned for it to constitute a violation of confidentiality -- as others here have said.

So ... the school can dismiss a student based on the evidence it has (e.g. a copy of the post). If the student wants to take them to court and sue them, he is free to do so -- but he would need a lawyer willing to take the case to go up against the school's attorney and try to convince a jury that the internet posting did not violate the principles set forth by HIPAA. It would be a hard case for a student to win. The public (jury members) do not want students discussing their cases on the internet -- and they WANT the schools to protect the public from such students.

Though ... elkpark (previous poster) is right. Schools can rarely get away with dismissing someone capriciously. To protect themselves from being sued, they have established processes they go through prior to dismissing someone. They'd be foolish not to have such procedures -- and they are not that stupid. Students often misrepresent the situation when discussing why and how they were dismissed.

madmominavan · Apr 27, 2008

GO TO A UNIVERSITY LIBRARY AND LOG ONTO SEARCH ENGINE FOR WESTLAW AND OTHER NURSING SITES OR STUDENT SITES... CONFIDENTIALITY IS A MAJOR ISSUE, EVN ON THE INTERNET. CONTACT A STUDENT GOVERNMEN ASOCITON, THE ANA AND /OR A LABOR LAW REP IN YUR AREA AND GET SOMEONE TO ADVOCATE FOR YOU. THERE IS A WHOLE LEGAL, ETHICAL, & MORAL PRCESS STUDENTS CAN BE HELD ACCOUNTIBLE AND RESPONSIBLE FOR DEP ON THE SCHOOL & FACILITY'S POLICIES AND LEGAL PROTOCOLS. tHERE SHOULD BE A PROFESSOR OR INSTRUCTOR/MENTOR WHO YOU CAN GO TO FOR ADVICE. dON;T THINK IT IS NOTHING... CONFIDENTIALITY IS A SERIOUS INFRACTION. YOU MAY NEED A GOOD ATTORNEY.