BSN's deliver safer care than ADN's??

Published

Now, I am all for further education, but I think this study is skewed. I truly don't see how they have come to the conclusion that taking more courses in the humanities and other such non-nursing related courses is going to produce a more competent bedside nurse. The core nursing cirriculum for most ADN and BSN programs is quite similar in my experience. I can see where the BSN nurse may have it over the ADN in managerial type roles, but as a bedside nurse? I think lots more studies need to be done before this quick conclusion is drawn. One factor that may affect nursing in this negative way is the poor economy. Maybe it is that some people are going into nursing just because it will almost guarantee them employment and don't really want to be in nursing and therefore are not as dedicated as nurses? These people may not want to go for the BSN. I don't know...that is just something I am throwing out there because this makes no sense to me. I don't want to start the old BSN vs. ADN war, but this is news and I was wondering, what do you all think?

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20030923-050052-9024r

WASHINGTON, Sept. 23 (UPI) -- The ongoing nursing shortage in the United States has forced some hospitals to rely on nurses with less than a college education as they scramble to fill vacancies but new research suggests the practice can yield deadly consequences for patients.

The study, the first of its kind, reveals patients undergoing surgeries at hospitals where a greater proportion of nurses have obtained a bachelor's or higher degree experienced a lower rate of death than patients at hospitals where most nurses had only associate degrees.

Such findings have implications not only for patients but also for how nursing schools, hospitals and even the U.S. Congress should address the nursing shortage, Linda Aiken, a nurse and lead investigator of the study, told United Press International.

These institutions have made efforts to address the nursing shortage by facilitating the rapid training of nurses via associate degree programs, but the study indicates in the long-run the strategy might be worse for both patients and hospitals, said Aiken, who is director of the center for health outcomes and policy research at the University of Pennsylvania's School of Nursing in Philadelphia.

It underscores the need to find ways to increase the numbers of nurses graduating from bachelor degree programs, she said, noting some hospitals studied did not employ a single nurse with a bachelor's or higher degree.

In the study, which is published in the Sept. 24 issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association, Aiken's team examined patient data from 168 Pennsylvania hospitals over a 19-month period beginning in 1998. They found, all other factors being equal, hospitals where 60 percent of the nurses held a bachelor's degree or higher had a 19-percent lower rate of surgical patients dying within 30 days of admission or dying from complications than hospitals where only 20 percent of nurses had higher degrees.

The authors estimate if all the hospitals in the study could meet the 60-percent, bachelor's-degree-or-higher threshold, 725 patient deaths could have been prevented over the study period.

The differences in patient mortality rates "are stunning and should make people very concerned," Geraldine Bednash, a registered nurse and executive director of the American Association of Colleges of Nursing, told UPI. "One of the first questions (patients) ought to ask people in a hospital is what is the proportion of their nurses with bachelor's degrees, and if it's not 60 percent or higher, I'd be very concerned about going into that hospital," Bednash said.

The higher rate of patient deaths associated with lower education level is compounded by the fact that "all of the federal government's projections about the nursing shortage over the past decade have not only projected a shortage of nurses but a severe shortage of baccalaureate degreed nurses," Aiken said. At present, less than half of all hospital staff nurses across the nation hold bachelor's degrees or higher.

"Policymakers seem to think we just need to get nurses out fast," but that is not good for hospitals or patients, Bednash said, suggesting legislators should focus on developing ways to produce more nurses with bachelor degrees because "it makes a difference in people's care and whether or not they live or die."

President George W. Bush signed the Nurse Reinvestment Act into law in 2002 in an effort to remedy the nursing shortage and Congress will likely authorize no more than $163 million for fiscal year 2004. But this falls far short of the $250 million the American Association of Colleges of Nursing estimated would be needed to address the problem.

"To date, we've had mostly a symbolic response from Congress," Aiken said, noting the money the legislative body has appropriated is "not a sufficient amount to close the nursing shortage."

Hospitals also have a role to play in addressing the problem, however, Aiken continued. They should "subsidize continued education to the nurses because there is a return to the hospital in terms of greater productivity and better patient outcomes," she said. But many hospitals do not seem to recognize the value of more education in their nurse because many have discontinued tuition reimbursement programs to help their nurses obtain bachelor's or advanced degrees, she said.

Aiken also noted the study found nursing experience was not associated with lower mortality rates of patients. "It's the educational level that's important and experience alone cannot achieve the same level of benefit for the patient as education plus experience," she said.

Joan Hrubetz, dean of the school of nursing at Saint Louis University, said as medical treatments become even more sophisticated, hospitals "will need nurses with advanced education to be able to deal with the kinds of treatments and diagnostics" that likely would be developed in the era of genetics and molecular-based medicine. "I don't think there's any question we need better trained nurses," Hrubetz told UPI.

Nevertheless, hospitals appear to be reluctant to make any changes based on this single study.

"Hospitals are very interested in studies such as this ... but it really needs to have further studies done because this really only represents one state," Rita Turley, president of the American Organization of Nurse Executives -- a subsidiary of the American Hospital Association -- told UPI.

The good news is although enrollment rates in baccalaureate nursing programs had been down over the past decade, they now appear to be on the rise. In addition, many schools are offering rapid training programs, in which holders of bachelor degrees in other fields can obtain a bachelor's degree in nursing in approximately one year, which may help increase the number of people joining the nursing profession.

Originally posted by BSNurse

Where in my post did I say ADN's do not use critical thinking skills? I believe I stated I was taught how to better use my critical thinking skills. I'm not going to argue this point because I already stated there are very smart LPN's, as well as ADN's and BSN's. I was talking about CLINICAL skills. I never said an ADN can't go into management. I was in management as an LVN. When I was an LVN, I used to dream of becoming an RN. When I worked with ADN's or BSN's, I wanted to be in their shoes. I just made the decision that was right for me. When I read the job listings, half the time it states "BSN required". Whether that means a BSN is better than an ADN is irrelevant. I didn't want ANY barriers to attaining a job. I still get insulted when they say MSN required, and you know what... I'm going to get that too. Then I can get on boards like this and foolishly argue with the BSN's how more intelligient I am now...This is ridiculous. All I see on this thread is people twisting words just to keep an argument going. Half the ADN's arguing are going to get there BSN's anyway because they know more education is better. I don't care what program you went to. If you choose not to further your education than bully for you! But congratulate others when they do, like any normal person would, instead of trying to prove how much smarter you are than them. I could care less what degree you have, I'm taking care of myself, no one else, and I'm excited to further my education to a MSN one day. I want to continually learn for the rest of my life. Now go ahead, twist away!

BSnurse

But you did say it when you stated that the BSN catches up to the ADN clinically but then has the advantage of having critical thinking skills..this is the point that gets most of us up in arms.

If you intend to argue the virtues of the BSN..stick to the facts. The BSN does graduate with more GERs, the BSN has some management classes in her/ his program. The BSN is necessary for the MSN. But don't throw the "critical thinking" aspect into the mix..it just doesn't hold any water. To even pass the NCLEX one has to use some critical thinking. In practice a nurse had BETTER use critical thinking, although, I have seen RNs both BSN and ADN that are like robots..giving cardiac meds without checking a pulse or anticoags without checking labs or simple abx without checking allergies..since "the MD ordered it". BTW..I usually see these when I review med mal stuff..and yes it is about 50/50 as far as whether or not the nurse that did the deed was a BSN or an RN

I am not against education as I have posted in other threads..I am working on a yr long certification now and already have decided my next certification. I have taken additional college classes towards a BS in Health promotion..education can only better a person. Even if you aren't learning much which is applicable you are using your brain..striving to be better.

I also think perhaps the entry level BSN is not a bad idea since it would make us more cohesive. I still have my doubt as to whether it will gain us more respect etc etc.

The ONLY problem I have with the whole argument is the "critical thinking" comments. That is inflammatory to RNs other than BSNs and frankly, in my experience, is just not true.

Erin

stevierae: You crack me up! Non-BSN nurses caring for pts? Oh, the humanity!

Specializes in ER, PACU.

I would like to say a few things...

1) In response to the comment made about being able to train monkeys to do certain things like caths, ect, in a way this was already tried. Not by monkeys of course, but a few years ago the hospitals were training people for like 6 weeks to perform procedures like this..And the results were not good. Many errors made, infection rates skyrocketing..This proves that NURSES whether BSN, ADN, or Diploma, are needed in the clinical setting, and that thier knowledge and skill are needed.

2) I disagree with the posters that say that LPN school is harder than RN school. I have been through both, and I cannot say that the LPN is harder. It may seem harder because its the first time you are being exposed to the material, and by the time you get to RN school its not brand new. I was overlooking a test I took in LPN school that I saved, and the material is not even close when it comes to level of difficulty. I highly value my LPN education, and it was a lifesaver when I entered RN school.

3) I agree that in some way, this study has to be flawed. I find it VERY difficult to believe that experience is less important than education. I am sorry, but if you compared a new nurse (with whatever degree) to a veteran BSN, ADN, diploma or even LPN in the same setting, there is no way that I believe the new nurse would give better care.

4) As far as BSN curriculum being the exact same as ADN in ALL schools, this is just not true. In my BSN program, we were required to take full semesters of certain subjects such as pharm, whereas the ADN program nearby crams them all into one semester. I dont care what subject you study, but there is no way that one subject can be taught in the same depth when its added into a class with many others, in comparison to focusing on it when its by itself in an entire semester. We also did not spend much time on management either. We were also given additional clinical hours, which exceeded the ADN, and we were able to participate in an internship in our last semester in the specialty of our choice, no such thing in an ADN program.

As a final note, I dont buy the arguement that "as long as you pass the boards that is enough". It doesnt matter whether your training is ADN, diploma, or BSN, you better know a lot more than being able to just pass the boards, because all you prove when you pass that test is that you are meet the MINIMUM requirements to practice. Bottom line.

As said by imagin916

4) As far as BSN curriculum being the exact same as ADN in ALL schools, this is just not true. In my BSN program, we were required to take full semesters of certain subjects such as pharm, whereas the ADN program nearby crams them all into one semester

What school do you go to we take full semesters just like the 4 year college a few miles from us.

As a final note, I dont buy the arguement that "as long as you pass the boards that is enough". It doesnt matter whether your training is ADN, diploma, or BSN, you better know a lot more than being able to just pass the boards, because all you prove when you pass that test is that you are meet the MINIMUM requirements to practice. Bottom line.

I don't believe that either, and am sorry if that was taken from my post. It is the minimum but I was only saying that it doesn't matter how you got to the point of taking the test. I don't know where these ADN programs are at where they are combining classes but according to the college near here we are taking the same classes as they are. The hospitals around here also say that we all seem to know the same material.

Specializes in Specializes in L/D, newborn, GYN, LTC, Dialysis.

I said this before:

NO BODY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Nobody graduates nursing school ready to practice independently. No BSN, ADN even diploma grad. I think those coming CLOSEST are dip grads, myself.

We need to get off the "my degree is better" bandwagon and just respect each other. Frankly I think it would be nice NOT to know what degree each holds among peers. And I don't for the most part...nor do I care.

Now if only we could get schools to stop pushing one degree or another down people's throats......sigh.....

the divisiveness is begun so early...as the so-called "eating our young"...it REALLY begins in school!!!!:(

Originally posted by imagin916

As a final note, I dont buy the arguement that "as long as you pass the boards that is enough". It doesnt matter whether your training is ADN, diploma, or BSN, you better know a lot more than being able to just pass the boards, because all you prove when you pass that test is that you are meet the MINIMUM requirements to practice. Bottom line.

That's the whole point----we are talking about what it takes to do ENTRY LEVEL NURSING here---and once you pass the boards--regardless of how you got to that point--you are qualified to practice ENTRY LEVEL NURSING--you have met the MINIMUM requirements to do so.

That is why you can now go to work with your congratulatory letter from tne BRN and say to your colleagues--I'm a "Real Nurse" (RN) now"--and you can believe from that day forward you will be expected to perform like one, and that you now have a license that can be taken away if you don't--so your entry level nursing skills will quickly become more sophisticated, as long as you continue to learn (i.e. keep up with conitnuing ed and not letting yourself stagnate, instead feeling that performing to the minimum standard of care is good enough.)

Specializes in ER, PACU.
Originally posted by wrmbreeze

As said by imagin916

4) As far as BSN curriculum being the exact same as ADN in ALL schools, this is just not true. In my BSN program, we were required to take full semesters of certain subjects such as pharm, whereas the ADN program nearby crams them all into one semester

What school do you go to we take full semesters just like the 4 year college a few miles from us.

As a final note, I dont buy the arguement that "as long as you pass the boards that is enough". It doesnt matter whether your training is ADN, diploma, or BSN, you better know a lot more than being able to just pass the boards, because all you prove when you pass that test is that you are meet the MINIMUM requirements to practice. Bottom line.

I don't believe that either, and am sorry if that was taken from my post. It is the minimum but I was only saying that it doesn't matter how you got to the point of taking the test. I don't know where these ADN programs are at where they are combining classes but according to the college near here we are taking the same classes as they are. The hospitals around here also say that we all seem to know the same material.

In response to this, I have seen MANY ADN programs have thier classes lined up something like this: Nursing 101-104, with no seperate pharm, or community health, nutrition, ect. Thier med surg classes are usually combined with skills and pharm. This is not ALL schools, but many of them are set up this way. I took all these classes separate, not together in one. I have never heard of an ADN program that takes ALL subjects seperately. Maybe they have some out there, but not around here.

The next poster disagreed with the above statement that you learn as you go along, and that it doesnt matter how you get to the test and that we all enter into nursing with a long road of learning ahead of us. I agree that we do start our "real" education once we start working, but it still makes sense to me that if someone is just prepared to take the exam, and not much time is spent in school learning a lot more than just to take the damn test, this person is at a disadvantage to someone whos program tough them to think beyond the test, whether that person is from an ADN, BSN or diploma program.

In addition, I dont believe what the hospitals say all the time either. I have had MANY hospitals at our school job fair say that they prefer BSN grads to ADN grads, and that they can tell the difference between the two. I dont know how you would tell one from the other since all new grads walk in there knowing nothing! Some hospitals in this area dont even allow ADN new grads to go into specialty areas at all. There are even some that wont hire new grad ADN's. That is thier loss. These policies of having an "all BSN" workforce I would bet is not the idea of nursing administration, it has to be from the business end. A nurse would know better.

ok for one last time, sigh ... I do NOT think that BSN nurses provide better care than other nurses. i NEVER stated or implied that adns and diploma RNs are going to be the downfall of nursing. If certain people could quit being so defensive for just a few minutes they would certainly see that NOTHING i have said places any judgement on the quality of nursing care that adns give. Geez, my opinion is that BSN should be required for future nurses and as I HAVE POSTED BEFORE here is the WHY that stevie rae seems to have missed in all of my other posts: because advanced education in this country usually leads to more money, autonomy and respect. In MOST other professions, the educational path is a STANDARDIZED one. Every lawyer that graduates today has a bs and then went to and graduated law school before sitting for the bar. every US educated MD that graduates today has a bs (at least) and then 4 yrs of med school and residency after that. ETC .. my point is that these professions and most others all have defined 1 clear educational path to obtaining that degree. I am not arguing whether or not all of that education is "needed", i am saying that these professions have benefited in salary, and respect and in large part i think that is due to furthering their educational requirements. In a hospital setting most other preofessions have advanced their entry level degree and have seen, better pay and prestige. WHy shouldn't nursing do the same? I have already said ad nauseum that all current practising RN's should be grandfathered in so whats the big problem? And last I AM NOT CREATING A PROBLEM WHERE THERE ISN"T ONE. sheesh the fact that this is a heated debate should tell you that in many peoples minds THIS IS A PROBLEM. I am simply trying to find ways to improve the field of nursing and its image and I think this is a way. It is not a judgement on you and your degree. change is a way of life otherwise you get left behind why should nursing be left behind? life is change it shouldnt be so frightening. Why so much hostility towards other peoples ideas?

But every time you say you want to "better" the profession by making BSN's the standard (I believe you said "improve" in your last post), that is like saying that diploma/ADN nurses are somehow lesser.

And I still believe that people who are not out there actually practicing as nurses should not be quite so opinionated. You really don't know what it is like to practice as a licensed nurse; go ahead and have an opinion if you want, but realize that to those of us who have been doing this for decades don't find the opinions of a "nursing student to be" all that credible.

I have no quibble with additional education..my beef is with people who have no practical experience to back up their opinions.

Originally posted by smkoepke

ok for one last time, sigh ... I do NOT think that BSN nurses provide better care than other nurses. i NEVER stated or implied that adns and diploma RNs are going to be the downfall of nursing. If certain people could quit being so defensive for just a few minutes they would certainly see that NOTHING i have said places any judgement on the quality of nursing care that adns give. Geez, my opinion is that BSN should be required for future nurses and as I HAVE POSTED BEFORE here is the WHY that stevie rae seems to have missed in all of my other posts: because advanced education in this country usually leads to more money, autonomy and respect. In MOST other professions, the educational path is a STANDARDIZED one. Every lawyer that graduates today has a bs and then went to and graduated law school before sitting for the bar. every US educated MD that graduates today has a bs (at least) and then 4 yrs of med school and residency after that. ETC .. my point is that these professions and most others all have defined 1 clear educational path to obtaining that degree. I am not arguing whether or not all of that education is "needed", i am saying that these professions have benefited in salary, and respect and in large part i think that is due to furthering their educational requirements. In a hospital setting most other preofessions have advanced their entry level degree and have seen, better pay and prestige. WHy shouldn't nursing do the same? I have already said ad nauseum that all current practising RN's should be grandfathered in so whats the big problem? And last I AM NOT CREATING A PROBLEM WHERE THERE ISN"T ONE. sheesh the fact that this is a heated debate should tell you that in many peoples minds THIS IS A PROBLEM. I am simply trying to find ways to improve the field of nursing and its image and I think this is a way. It is not a judgement on you and your degree. change is a way of life otherwise you get left behind why should nursing be left behind? life is change it shouldnt be so frightening. Why so much hostility towards other peoples ideas?

Please, smkoepke, if you insist on using my name, don't misquote me. I am neither defensive nor concerned with being grandfathered--anyone who knows me will tell you I am one of the most easygoing, laid back people around, and I know how to do other things besides nursing, so it's not an issue--plus, we are discussing FUTURE nurses--not current ones--

(Hey, I thought you said you were leaving this thread, anyway...)

No one, myself included, implied that you were stating that BSN nurses provide better care than other nurses. Again, we must focus on what is required for entry level nursing practice of the future--not on the current AA and BSN RNs.

And the point that I keep making that you seem to be missing is that a lot of us don't care about "respect" except among the people that matter: our patients and the docs, tech staff, and other like minded individuals that we work alongside, including the nurses that share our ideals and philosophies---NOT management. Who else is there? I don't think the general public cares one way or the other about what degrees future nurses get to practice entry level nursing--as long as they don't get STUCK at the entry level nursing skillset, and are still doing it 10 years later.

As I think most of us, even you, agree: We are talking about ENTRY LEVEL NURSING HERE. No one out of any program--now or in the future, AA, BSN, or Masters'--is able to step out of school and provide any better than very basic nursing skills, (except, possibly, people like LPNs, ex-corpsmen, EMTs and the like who have DONE it before--which is why they deserve advanced entry into nursing programs and the right to challenge exams and demonstrate their clinical and critical thinking skills) because that comes with learning and experience obtained on the job and with continuing ed.

If anything, I have a real problem with continuing ed not being madated in every state--not doing continuing ed is what makes people complacent and incapable of providing good nursing care--they just don't keep up with current practice, so their clinical skills--AND critical thinking skills--stagnate.

They continue happily and obliviously "doing what they've always done" not realizing that that way is no longer recommended best practice.

I think that there are going to be many, many people contemplating a future in nursing who share my philosophy: They don't care about power. They don't care about "prestige." And I think you know that additional education, or a standardized path that leads to entry level nursing, does not translate to more autonomy.

I don't think that ANY entry level RN should be trusted with a whole lot of autonomy--that will come in time, with experience, and after they feel absolutely comfortable making patient care decisions that they know they--and they alone, not jointly responsible with their preceptor-- will be held accountable for.

They don't care about management's opinion of them. They don't care about "respect" except among those whose repect matters to THEM. They care about providing the best patient care they can; doing their 8 or 10 or 12 hours, and getting out of there.

Extra money, yes, perhaps that would be nice, but I really doubt that that is ever going to happen across the board--it's not the norm now.

Autonomy--what a joke. How many floor nurses do you know, anyway, that have a lot of autonomy? With all due respect, that is why a lot of them choose to stay on the floors instead of moving into specialty areas in the first place--floor nursing does not require a heck of a lot of autonomy. There are just too many people involved in the patient care decisions made on the floors. They have standing orders, or they must call the doc during the middle of the night for something as simple as an aspirin.

This is in no way meant as a slam at floor nurses--it's just that some people have no desire to take on the headaches that often come with extra autonomy, and I can't say I blame them. Autonomy=more stress=more responsibilities=more blame (often undeserved) when things go wrong, and for what? An extra $1.00 an hour (if that) for taking on the additional responsibility? Who wants it? Who needs it? Why do you think plenty of ICU nurses leave to do something with less "autonomy--" such as clinic nursing or phone advice? Autonomy can get real old, real fast, and often leads to burnout.

I suspect that RNs of the future are going to feel the same as I do--they don't care about other peoples' views of them as "professionals" nor do they pine away, wondering what they could and should do to get more "respect" for "nursing as a profession."

To say it again, I think nurses of the future will save their passion for other causes. Hopefully by then continuing ed in all 50 states will be mandated--that is something that I am passionate about.

Nursing doesn't need "fixing" at the entry level--the errors--some fatal-- I see every day while reviewing nursing notes in nursing negligence cases are made by supposedly EXPERIENCED nurses--not new grads.

Originally posted by fab4fan

But every time you say you want to "better" the profession by making BSN's the standard (I believe you said "improve" in your last post), that is like saying that diploma/ADN nurses are somehow lesser.

And I still believe that people who are not out there actually practicing as nurses should not be quite so opinionated. You really don't know what it is like to practice as a licensed nurse; go ahead and have an opinion if you want, but realize that to those of us who have been doing this for decades don't find the opinions of a "nursing student to be" all that credible.

I have no quibble with additional education..my beef is with people who have no practical experience to back up their opinions.

If people would just think before speaking then half these rude and petty posts wouldn't even be necessary. Because a person says that having a BSN requirement would give the nursing profession more prestige or improve it isn't saying that the nurses that are already in it are inferior nurses. It is no different then the paralegal field. For years having experience or just the willingness to learn got you in the door to being a paralegal. In the year 2004, most credible law firms will require that you have a BA. Does that mean that all the paralegals prior to this are dimwits?????? No of course not! The point that most people are trying to make is that most of us look at nursing as a professional position, but most other professional positions have a minumium requirement of a BA/BS, why should nursing be any different? No one is saying that one nurse is better than another and if they are......then they are just plain ignorant! As far as someone not being a nurse giving their opinion, this is one topic that probably effects students more than any of you who are already nurses because depending on the direction that nursing ends up going in, the educational choices we make now could effect us later. If there is a change in the educational requirements for RN's you guys wouldn't even be effected by it, it would effect current and future students. You would never tell by the responses that our opinions really didn't matter much. It seems that they matter a little too much. This is just conversation and people should really lighten up. I would never presume to tell someone who is already employed in a position for a number of years that I know better than them, but when we're talking about something that would effect anyone who has chosen this as a career, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Yes, everyone is entitled to his/her opinion, and choices made today may certainly affect the future of nursing.

You have your opinion, I have mine. I did think before I posted, BTW. Just because I vigorously disagree does not mean I put no thought into my response.

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