BSN's deliver safer care than ADN's??

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Now, I am all for further education, but I think this study is skewed. I truly don't see how they have come to the conclusion that taking more courses in the humanities and other such non-nursing related courses is going to produce a more competent bedside nurse. The core nursing cirriculum for most ADN and BSN programs is quite similar in my experience. I can see where the BSN nurse may have it over the ADN in managerial type roles, but as a bedside nurse? I think lots more studies need to be done before this quick conclusion is drawn. One factor that may affect nursing in this negative way is the poor economy. Maybe it is that some people are going into nursing just because it will almost guarantee them employment and don't really want to be in nursing and therefore are not as dedicated as nurses? These people may not want to go for the BSN. I don't know...that is just something I am throwing out there because this makes no sense to me. I don't want to start the old BSN vs. ADN war, but this is news and I was wondering, what do you all think?

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20030923-050052-9024r

WASHINGTON, Sept. 23 (UPI) -- The ongoing nursing shortage in the United States has forced some hospitals to rely on nurses with less than a college education as they scramble to fill vacancies but new research suggests the practice can yield deadly consequences for patients.

The study, the first of its kind, reveals patients undergoing surgeries at hospitals where a greater proportion of nurses have obtained a bachelor's or higher degree experienced a lower rate of death than patients at hospitals where most nurses had only associate degrees.

Such findings have implications not only for patients but also for how nursing schools, hospitals and even the U.S. Congress should address the nursing shortage, Linda Aiken, a nurse and lead investigator of the study, told United Press International.

These institutions have made efforts to address the nursing shortage by facilitating the rapid training of nurses via associate degree programs, but the study indicates in the long-run the strategy might be worse for both patients and hospitals, said Aiken, who is director of the center for health outcomes and policy research at the University of Pennsylvania's School of Nursing in Philadelphia.

It underscores the need to find ways to increase the numbers of nurses graduating from bachelor degree programs, she said, noting some hospitals studied did not employ a single nurse with a bachelor's or higher degree.

In the study, which is published in the Sept. 24 issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association, Aiken's team examined patient data from 168 Pennsylvania hospitals over a 19-month period beginning in 1998. They found, all other factors being equal, hospitals where 60 percent of the nurses held a bachelor's degree or higher had a 19-percent lower rate of surgical patients dying within 30 days of admission or dying from complications than hospitals where only 20 percent of nurses had higher degrees.

The authors estimate if all the hospitals in the study could meet the 60-percent, bachelor's-degree-or-higher threshold, 725 patient deaths could have been prevented over the study period.

The differences in patient mortality rates "are stunning and should make people very concerned," Geraldine Bednash, a registered nurse and executive director of the American Association of Colleges of Nursing, told UPI. "One of the first questions (patients) ought to ask people in a hospital is what is the proportion of their nurses with bachelor's degrees, and if it's not 60 percent or higher, I'd be very concerned about going into that hospital," Bednash said.

The higher rate of patient deaths associated with lower education level is compounded by the fact that "all of the federal government's projections about the nursing shortage over the past decade have not only projected a shortage of nurses but a severe shortage of baccalaureate degreed nurses," Aiken said. At present, less than half of all hospital staff nurses across the nation hold bachelor's degrees or higher.

"Policymakers seem to think we just need to get nurses out fast," but that is not good for hospitals or patients, Bednash said, suggesting legislators should focus on developing ways to produce more nurses with bachelor degrees because "it makes a difference in people's care and whether or not they live or die."

President George W. Bush signed the Nurse Reinvestment Act into law in 2002 in an effort to remedy the nursing shortage and Congress will likely authorize no more than $163 million for fiscal year 2004. But this falls far short of the $250 million the American Association of Colleges of Nursing estimated would be needed to address the problem.

"To date, we've had mostly a symbolic response from Congress," Aiken said, noting the money the legislative body has appropriated is "not a sufficient amount to close the nursing shortage."

Hospitals also have a role to play in addressing the problem, however, Aiken continued. They should "subsidize continued education to the nurses because there is a return to the hospital in terms of greater productivity and better patient outcomes," she said. But many hospitals do not seem to recognize the value of more education in their nurse because many have discontinued tuition reimbursement programs to help their nurses obtain bachelor's or advanced degrees, she said.

Aiken also noted the study found nursing experience was not associated with lower mortality rates of patients. "It's the educational level that's important and experience alone cannot achieve the same level of benefit for the patient as education plus experience," she said.

Joan Hrubetz, dean of the school of nursing at Saint Louis University, said as medical treatments become even more sophisticated, hospitals "will need nurses with advanced education to be able to deal with the kinds of treatments and diagnostics" that likely would be developed in the era of genetics and molecular-based medicine. "I don't think there's any question we need better trained nurses," Hrubetz told UPI.

Nevertheless, hospitals appear to be reluctant to make any changes based on this single study.

"Hospitals are very interested in studies such as this ... but it really needs to have further studies done because this really only represents one state," Rita Turley, president of the American Organization of Nurse Executives -- a subsidiary of the American Hospital Association -- told UPI.

The good news is although enrollment rates in baccalaureate nursing programs had been down over the past decade, they now appear to be on the rise. In addition, many schools are offering rapid training programs, in which holders of bachelor degrees in other fields can obtain a bachelor's degree in nursing in approximately one year, which may help increase the number of people joining the nursing profession.

just pointing out that a lot of the quotes you used in your last posts didn't come from any of my previous posts stevie. You started out addressing me but then used other peoples quotes. (don't know if you realized that or not... anyway) The point is this is all just our individual opinons anyway. you can say that you know of 1000 nurses to whom respect and prestige "don't matter" and i can find 1000 to whom it does matter. (its not all encompassing but it makes a difference!) So what does this prove? not a thing you still have your opinion and i still have mine.

fab4, when i spoke of trying to "better" or "improve" nursing, it was not to cast a slight on the NURSES and their education. I'll say it again i am not casting judgement on whose better. Mine is an opinion of what would be "better" from a business or for lack of a better word political point of view, I don't think i have to be a practising nurse to have and air an opinion on this issue as having worked in the healthcare industry i can see the treatment of all of the different professionals that i hav worked with. I agree that non-nurses maybe shouldn't chime in on issues of care because we haven't been there. But this is not the same. I would hope that people can understand that NOT everyone is trying to slight someone else. I don't see anything wrong with changing the educational requirements for new nurses, it has no bearing on what was done before and it doesn't mean they will be "better". But in my experience of the world people with more education are afforded more respect right out of the gate. I think that is a huge benefit.

as an aside, why does it seem to be a common theme that if the bsn is mandated no one will have to do continuing education? No one has out right said this but it has been implied a few times. I know i still would advocate for continuing education no matter what the degree level. Knowledge is a good thing!

njstudent nurse thankyou for getting my point!:and listening to a lowly "student-nurse-to-be":kiss

Originally posted by smkoepke

njstudent nurse thankyou for getting my point!:and listening to a lowly "student-nurse-to-be":kiss

Wait! Wait! Smkoepke--let me get this straight--am I to understand that you are not even a student nurse yet, and you have all these opinions?

My dear, if this is true, I am surprised that no one on this board has told you to come back when you have a little more nursing experience under your belt.

I won't say that, because I am not the type to say it--just like I am one of the few nurses that is always nice to surgical residents--most nurses have the attitude that they (residents) are non-entities and that any "opinions" they may have are straight out of a book---hmmmm--not based on experience or real life situations--

Boy, even when I was a new grad, I did not open my mouth to voice an opinion for at least a year--and I would have been torn to shreds by the RNs I worked with if I had ever cited an opinion based on something I learned in nursing school--they would have quickly informed me--not very nicely-- that nursing school and the real world are two different "animals."

Originally posted by smkoepke

What i am saying is that there needs to be a clear cut and defined educational preparation for an RN. The same way that there is a clear cut preparation for most other professions. you don't see doctors, pts, lawyers, engineers, architects etc... (in this country) that skipped 1 or more years of schooling and still some out as MD's or PT's etc.. they have a standard degree that all must earn in order to practice or sit for licensing exams.

Originally posted by smkoepke

i guess the issue i have with allowing people with "past experience" to bypass certain educational requirements in nursing, is that NOBODY ELSE DOES IT.

The above quotes are the only ones that I have ever responded to of yours, I believe, smkoepke--you did WRITE them, didn't you?

My brother, the marine engineer, called me from Long Beach CA, where his ship is docked for a few days after coming back from China.

He assures me that the practice of obtaining advanced placement into ALL marine engineering programs in the U.S. by challenging tests and demonstrating both cognitive and technical skills--or by skipping the program altogether, simply by challenging exams and demonstrating skills satisfactorily and stepping right into the job--is alive and well today.

There's one example of a profession that still does it--you did ask for just one, correct?

I don't happen to count any ex-cons among my aquaintances, so cannot swear to this, but I have heard that plenty of "jailhouse lawyers" leave prison savvy enough to apply what they have learned in the law library and by taking various correspondence courses to advanced placement in pre-law programs, or even law school.

Every major university in the U.S. awards credit or advanced placement into a variety of degree programs for "life experience" accrued to date.

Maybe they are on to something. Just a thought.

Originally posted by stevierae

Wait! Wait! Smkoepke--let me get this straight--am I to understand that you are not even a student nurse yet, and you have all these opinions?

My dear, if this is true, I am surprised that no one on this board has told you to come back when you have a little more nursing experience under your belt.

I won't say that, because I am not the type to say it--just like I am one of the few nurses that is always nice to surgical residents--most nurses have the attitude that they (residents) are non-entities and that any "opinions" they may have are straight out of a book---hmmmm--not based on experience or real life situations--

]

wow, well i guess you told me! well for one thing fab4 has already soundly put me down for only being a "nursing student to be" and actually having an opinion. oh and the subtle yet elitist attitude displayed by the "my dear" is uncalled for. i have been polite regarding my opinions and see no reason that others can't be as well. and as this issue has nothing to do with patient care, (because my view is more of a political or business related one), i don't see what being a practising nurse has to do with it. Ive been employed in many different capacities and have always noted that higher education has been rewarded. (especially in healthcare) In fact as we are discussing a topic that would not affect current nurses and their licenses i would say that students have more of a vested interest in this topic than the nurses who have already obtained their degree. And stevierae if you found someone whos profession allows them to skip education in lieu of experience then hey i guess you got me there. 1 out of how many?..... anyway as i have said i appreciate experience and think that it will add to the educational experience but in my opinion in today's world, the majority of professions don't allow experience to take the place of the formal education. I don't think nursing should either and i have already stated why in previous posts. you don't have to agree with it but it doesn't make my opinion any less valid. My goodness some of you are so concerned about the "elitist" attitudes that you think all BSN proponents display that you can't even see that your posts display that same attitude toward others with "lower" education (ie students) than you.

:rolleyes:

Originally posted by smkoepke

Originally posted by stevierae

Wait! Wait! Smkoepke--let me get this straight--am I to understand that you are not even a student nurse yet, and you have all these opinions?

My dear, if this is true, I am surprised that no one on this board has told you to come back when you have a little more nursing experience under your belt.

I won't say that, because I am not the type to say it--just like I am one of the few nurses that is always nice to surgical residents--most nurses have the attitude that they (residents) are non-entities and that any "opinions" they may have are straight out of a book---hmmmm--not based on experience or real life situations--

quote:

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Originally posted by smkoepke

oh and the subtle yet elitist attitude displayed by the "my dear" is uncalled for.

:rolleyes:

LOL, I am anything but elitist. I called you "my dear" simply because I assumed, perhaps wrongly, that since you are a student, you are much younger than I am--perhaps the age of one of my daughters, 23 or 25--I meant no harm and certainly did not mean to come across as consdescending. I call my daughters "my dear," too--just as I remember the 40 and 50 something nurses calling me "my dear" when I was a new grad in my 20s. No harm, no foul. :kiss

Just remember, though: Every major university in the U.S. awards credit or advanced placement into a variety of degree programs for "life experience" accrued to date.

I think the educators who instituted this practice nationwide are wise, indeed.

Hi all,

Im a relatively new member.........and Ive read a great deal of posts but this one seems to have sparked alot of debate. Im a 32 year old single mom. Im going to school full time and will be graduating in May from an ADN program. With 10yrs of work in the health care field prior. I guess my basis for becoming a nurse is to treat others the way youd want to be treated. I have a passion for the profession and a true love of people. I completely understand the debate and some hurt feelings that have been stated back and forth here; but ultimatly it comes down to the patient.

The patient lying in that bed doesnt care if you have your bachelors or associates...the only thing they care about is getting the best quality treatment. Ive seen some incredible nurses, beit, LPNs, RNs, NPs.....I work with one seasoned LPN now that could put a few of the RNs on the floor to shame. And its not whats shes earned as a degree; its how she treats her patients. She's professional, caring and patient. Ive worked with BSN nurses (new grads) that cant hang an IV properly...and have worked with ADN nurses(new grads) who have made med errors. But I dont look at them and say its because they have or dont have their BSN. I look at them and think that no matter what their degree is, they need more training. Its on a case by case basis.

My point is.......why does it matter what a "study" says. Its a generic conclusion to a controlled situation. There are some great nurses out there and some horrible ones. Everyone has a right to their opinion...and should be allowed to vent it. As nurses (or soon to be anyway..lol), we work in an enviornment thats increasingly demanding. The nursing shortage has only compounded that fact.....and the last thing we need is to have a rift of whos right and whos wrong.

I can only say for myself, that if I was lying in a hospital bed waiting for a nurse to answer my call light because Im in enough pain to scream.... or I need a bed pan, or Im waiting for accurate discharge instructions....I count on the fact that the person walking in is going to be caring, professional and educated. Im not going to ask what degree they have or where they went to school.

I just wanted to add my two cents.........

Andie

Originally posted by stevierae

LOL, I am anything but elitist. I called you "my dear" simply because I assumed, perhaps wrongly, that since you are a student, you are much younger than I am--perhaps the age of one of my daughters, 23 or 25--I meant no harm and certainly did not mean to come across as consdescending. I call my daughters "my dear," too--just as I remember the 40 and 50 something nurses calling me "my dear" when I was a new grad in my 20s. No harm, no foul. :kiss

then i was wrong for jumping to that conclusion and i apologize, no problem.

:)

Andie you are absolutely right. My personal reason for being a future BSN proponent has absolutely nothing to do with patient care (although there are others who want BSN only and want to get the who's a better nurse thing going.) I just wanted to show that there are a few peole who feel this way for other reasons than the typical my degree is better than yours fight.

My dear, if this is true, I am surprised that no one on this board has told you to come back when you have a little more nursing experience under your belt.

Actually, stevierae, this has been addressed.

Hmmm...guess I should start pontificating about how accountants should be educated. I may not be an accountant, or even an accountant in training, but I can have an opinion.

Specializes in LTC.

This argument is getting old. All I want to say is I hope to get a kind, experienced mentor when I start a job after graduation.

Originally posted by fab4fan

Actually, stevierae, this has been addressed.

Hmmm...guess I should start pontificating about how accountants should be educated. I may not be an accountant, or even an accountant in training, but I can have an opinion.

yep you sure should especially if you have researched and are planning to go into that field, you have every right to have and express your personal ideas about the future. just don't start telling accountants how to file taxes or keep their books you might run into a problem there.;)

A long long time ago, RN's where strictly admin., LVN's did charge, passed meds. and did primary nursing care along side nurses aides. A long long time ago, most hospitals hired two LVN's instead of paying for one RN. Anyone with a degree worked admin. and those positions were scarce. Back then, when an RN

was placed on the floor ( trends started to change) they where placed with a seasoned LVN who showed them how to actually practice nursing. You see...unlike an LVN, these RN's where mostly class & book taught. They had very little clinical training.

I believe today's RN's receive even less clinical training. Now before anyone misunderstands me, allow me to make my point.

It is my understanding that we are at the beginning of a world wide nursing shortage and for the life of me, I just don't understand why the powers that be, would want to sell us short, by trying to imply that a degree is the only thing fit to take care of patients. It takes a village to raise a child and we all have a job to do in this big mess. When & if we get pass this, then these powers that be, can phase-out, merge and terminate all the ADN's, LVN's and aides till the cows come home. And thats all I have to say on that.

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