BSN's deliver safer care than ADN's??

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Now, I am all for further education, but I think this study is skewed. I truly don't see how they have come to the conclusion that taking more courses in the humanities and other such non-nursing related courses is going to produce a more competent bedside nurse. The core nursing cirriculum for most ADN and BSN programs is quite similar in my experience. I can see where the BSN nurse may have it over the ADN in managerial type roles, but as a bedside nurse? I think lots more studies need to be done before this quick conclusion is drawn. One factor that may affect nursing in this negative way is the poor economy. Maybe it is that some people are going into nursing just because it will almost guarantee them employment and don't really want to be in nursing and therefore are not as dedicated as nurses? These people may not want to go for the BSN. I don't know...that is just something I am throwing out there because this makes no sense to me. I don't want to start the old BSN vs. ADN war, but this is news and I was wondering, what do you all think?

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20030923-050052-9024r

WASHINGTON, Sept. 23 (UPI) -- The ongoing nursing shortage in the United States has forced some hospitals to rely on nurses with less than a college education as they scramble to fill vacancies but new research suggests the practice can yield deadly consequences for patients.

The study, the first of its kind, reveals patients undergoing surgeries at hospitals where a greater proportion of nurses have obtained a bachelor's or higher degree experienced a lower rate of death than patients at hospitals where most nurses had only associate degrees.

Such findings have implications not only for patients but also for how nursing schools, hospitals and even the U.S. Congress should address the nursing shortage, Linda Aiken, a nurse and lead investigator of the study, told United Press International.

These institutions have made efforts to address the nursing shortage by facilitating the rapid training of nurses via associate degree programs, but the study indicates in the long-run the strategy might be worse for both patients and hospitals, said Aiken, who is director of the center for health outcomes and policy research at the University of Pennsylvania's School of Nursing in Philadelphia.

It underscores the need to find ways to increase the numbers of nurses graduating from bachelor degree programs, she said, noting some hospitals studied did not employ a single nurse with a bachelor's or higher degree.

In the study, which is published in the Sept. 24 issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association, Aiken's team examined patient data from 168 Pennsylvania hospitals over a 19-month period beginning in 1998. They found, all other factors being equal, hospitals where 60 percent of the nurses held a bachelor's degree or higher had a 19-percent lower rate of surgical patients dying within 30 days of admission or dying from complications than hospitals where only 20 percent of nurses had higher degrees.

The authors estimate if all the hospitals in the study could meet the 60-percent, bachelor's-degree-or-higher threshold, 725 patient deaths could have been prevented over the study period.

The differences in patient mortality rates "are stunning and should make people very concerned," Geraldine Bednash, a registered nurse and executive director of the American Association of Colleges of Nursing, told UPI. "One of the first questions (patients) ought to ask people in a hospital is what is the proportion of their nurses with bachelor's degrees, and if it's not 60 percent or higher, I'd be very concerned about going into that hospital," Bednash said.

The higher rate of patient deaths associated with lower education level is compounded by the fact that "all of the federal government's projections about the nursing shortage over the past decade have not only projected a shortage of nurses but a severe shortage of baccalaureate degreed nurses," Aiken said. At present, less than half of all hospital staff nurses across the nation hold bachelor's degrees or higher.

"Policymakers seem to think we just need to get nurses out fast," but that is not good for hospitals or patients, Bednash said, suggesting legislators should focus on developing ways to produce more nurses with bachelor degrees because "it makes a difference in people's care and whether or not they live or die."

President George W. Bush signed the Nurse Reinvestment Act into law in 2002 in an effort to remedy the nursing shortage and Congress will likely authorize no more than $163 million for fiscal year 2004. But this falls far short of the $250 million the American Association of Colleges of Nursing estimated would be needed to address the problem.

"To date, we've had mostly a symbolic response from Congress," Aiken said, noting the money the legislative body has appropriated is "not a sufficient amount to close the nursing shortage."

Hospitals also have a role to play in addressing the problem, however, Aiken continued. They should "subsidize continued education to the nurses because there is a return to the hospital in terms of greater productivity and better patient outcomes," she said. But many hospitals do not seem to recognize the value of more education in their nurse because many have discontinued tuition reimbursement programs to help their nurses obtain bachelor's or advanced degrees, she said.

Aiken also noted the study found nursing experience was not associated with lower mortality rates of patients. "It's the educational level that's important and experience alone cannot achieve the same level of benefit for the patient as education plus experience," she said.

Joan Hrubetz, dean of the school of nursing at Saint Louis University, said as medical treatments become even more sophisticated, hospitals "will need nurses with advanced education to be able to deal with the kinds of treatments and diagnostics" that likely would be developed in the era of genetics and molecular-based medicine. "I don't think there's any question we need better trained nurses," Hrubetz told UPI.

Nevertheless, hospitals appear to be reluctant to make any changes based on this single study.

"Hospitals are very interested in studies such as this ... but it really needs to have further studies done because this really only represents one state," Rita Turley, president of the American Organization of Nurse Executives -- a subsidiary of the American Hospital Association -- told UPI.

The good news is although enrollment rates in baccalaureate nursing programs had been down over the past decade, they now appear to be on the rise. In addition, many schools are offering rapid training programs, in which holders of bachelor degrees in other fields can obtain a bachelor's degree in nursing in approximately one year, which may help increase the number of people joining the nursing profession.

You said that quite nicely, ErinRN.

snrubel-

"Sorry, but that's the truth. Education = respect in the medical field as someone else has already pointed out. Associate's degree recipients are never going to be given autonomy and be considered peers by those with Master and Doctoral preparation. "

Where I work, The Clinical Manager, Education Coodinator and even the Regional Director of Clinical Services are all ADNs. The Peritoneal Department Director is a diploma RN.

There is not a single BSN in the entire company.

Also, I've met several Masters prepared nurses who tell me they are still disrepected by physicians. To many docs, a nurse is "just" a nurse, no matter how advanced her degree.

My mil is a doctorally prepared RN. She considers all the ADNs she works with her peers.

Originally posted by fab4fan

You said that quite nicely, ErinRN.

Thanks Fab..didn't mean to post it twice though!!

Guess the point I was trying to make is ALL nurses BETTER use critical thinking skills..IF they don't the pt WILL be put at risk.

As far as the Docs..when I worked ER, all of the Docs treated me with respect.Not one of them ever asked my educational level. I was told on numerous occasions "You are one of the "good ones"..and not to toot my own horn but damn right..I pride myself on knowing my sh** and continuing to learn so that I can be the best I can be in whatever arena I choose to be in as a nurse.

Competence is not taught is school, critical thinking, common sense and the DESIRE to know WHY are ingrained within an individual..

Management is also not taught in school..management tools yes, but IMO..leaders are born. Personality traits have much more to do with effective leadership..

:)

Originally posted by Erin RN

.....Competence is not taught is school, critical thinking, common sense and the DESIRE to know WHY are ingrained within an individual..

Management is also not taught in school..management tools yes, but IMO..leaders are born. Personality traits have much more to do with effective leadership..

:)

I agree whole-heartedly.

Excellent, excellent post, ErinRN--you are obviously a great critical thinker, and an asset to whatever ER you do/did triage for (indeed, to any department who is lucky enough to "get" you!)

Where in my post did I say ADN's do not use critical thinking skills? I believe I stated I was taught how to better use my critical thinking skills. I'm not going to argue this point because I already stated there are very smart LPN's, as well as ADN's and BSN's. I was talking about CLINICAL skills. I never said an ADN can't go into management. I was in management as an LVN. When I was an LVN, I used to dream of becoming an RN. When I worked with ADN's or BSN's, I wanted to be in their shoes. I just made the decision that was right for me. When I read the job listings, half the time it states "BSN required". Whether that means a BSN is better than an ADN is irrelevant. I didn't want ANY barriers to attaining a job. I still get insulted when they say MSN required, and you know what... I'm going to get that too. Then I can get on boards like this and foolishly argue with the BSN's how more intelligient I am now...This is ridiculous. All I see on this thread is people twisting words just to keep an argument going. Half the ADN's arguing are going to get there BSN's anyway because they know more education is better. I don't care what program you went to. If you choose not to further your education than bully for you! But congratulate others when they do, like any normal person would, instead of trying to prove how much smarter you are than them. I could care less what degree you have, I'm taking care of myself, no one else, and I'm excited to further my education to a MSN one day. I want to continually learn for the rest of my life. Now go ahead, twist away!

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Originally posted by smkoepke

i guess the issue i have with allowing people with "past experience" to bypass certain educational requirements in nursing, is that NOBODY ELSE DOES IT.

Actually, something just occurred to me, and I did not have to go far to research the validity of it.

My brother was a boiler technician in the '70s on Navy ships. This is an enlisted man's job--that is, a sailor's--not an officer's.

However, when he got out, he did not get any sort of college degree, although I think he may have taken a class here and there for his own enjoyment and continuing education.

He did challenge some sort of exams--several. Since then, he has been a marine engineer--an officer--on a variety of vessels, both for the Merchant Marine and for the U.S. Maritime Service. This position generally requires a college degree and advanced post-graduate engineering training.

I suspect there are many civilian marine engineers out there who followed the same careeer path as my brother did. These marine engineers navigate dangerous (remember the Prince William Sound?) and terrorist-infested waters (Middle East) every day.

They monitor and maintain sophisticated engineering equipment that, if off by a fraction, could result in an explosion or a crash.

Gee, I wonder if their "lack of critical thinking skills," (How could they have any, having not gone to college?) ever proves a detriment to them?

Just to show you that, indeed, SOMEBODY ELSE DOES IT.

Specializes in Specializes in L/D, newborn, GYN, LTC, Dialysis.
Originally posted by Hellllllo Nurse

snrubel-

"My mil is a doctorally prepared RN. She considers all the ADNs she works with her peers.

Ah there is the classy educated person of which I speak. Bless her!!!! I would MOST look up to and emulate a person like this anyday over the arrogant types in Ivory Tower life. She sounds like a one-of-a-kind occurence, sadly, in nursing today.

:)

For my ADN program, we had to have A&P 1&2, micro, algebra, stats, written communications 1&2, psych, sociology, lifespan psych, chem 1 and 2 years of language. Now I dunno about most of you, but it took me 2 years to get all of the above. So, my two year nursing program ended up taking four. I'm certainly not belittling the stress and commitment that BSN students go through, but in all fairness, I really wish they would stop belittling mine.

stevierae if you can name one CURRENT program that is supposed to be considered a professional degree that allows people to skip formal education based on experience. THen i completely take back what i said about "nobody else doing it." (though i think you know my point was that this is not the norm, and i think we at least can agree on that.)At this point though i feel the point has become moot. You seem very defensive and thats your right but i don't like to engage in online opinon fights where no one is going to win. My hope was that i could present a different side to the issue and show some people that not all of us who think the BSN should be entry level, think this because we think that BSN nurses are "better" caregivers. My point was to look to the future of nursing and provide some insight into why i think this is the way to go. (and i think that i have done that.) I read and accepted some of your points, (though i don't think you ever accepted any of mine as being valid) thats ok thats your opinion. Mine has been and still is that the bsn should be required for future Rn's. I am leaving this thread because i don't think for the most part it is serving a purpose anymore other than for one side to roll there eyes at the other. It would be nice if people could actually admit that other peoples opinions are valid as well as their own.

I have been reading through this thread and have seen someone say there should not be so many different ways to become a nurse. Well I guess it may be that I am unqualified to voice this being that I am in an ADN program but I thought there was only one way to become a nurse and that was to take the test required to get your license. Who cares how you got there as long as you know your stuff and can pass the test. But hey thats just my opinion. I personally think that being in an ADN program is great being that I am taught by other ADNs, and also BSNs, MSN, NPs you name it I've probably had a class with one of them. I think this makes me a well rounded person.

Originally posted by smkoepke

Mine has been and still is that the bsn should be required for future Rn's.

But you stilll have not stated WHY precisely you believe this--just vague references to your concerns about "the future of nursing" (that is, if THE HORROR of non-BSN trained entry-level nurses is allowed to cause its downfall) and "professional respect" and "peers"--and a lot of us have simply stated that those things do not matter to us.

The future of nursing will proceed on its merry way, and will do just fine--it always has--stop trying to create problems where there are none.

If anything, AA programs are far more structured, sophisticated, rigid and state of the art than they were when I went to nursing school--competition to get in is tough---there are many bilingual programs--and patients will receive excellent care from these RNs, provided they are allowed to GIVE it.

Graduates of the bilingual programs willl be able to do what is not being well enough now--turning out nurses that can actually communicate with certain groups of patients without having to call and wait for a translator--or having to grab the nearest housekeeper who is gracious enough to share HIS knowledge.

You have also not stated have not stated WHY, precisely, you think former life experience and learned skills should not give one the right to challenge exams that would allow advanced placement into ANY program!

It's almost like your attitude is one of "Well, I just don't think it should, and that's that." (not quoting you, just stating what seems to come out when one reads between the lines.)

As I said, I haven't researched whether any programs of any kind currently exist that allow advanced placement into programs based on previous experience and skills. If they don't exist, they should.

I believe that I will use any power or influence that I have--however minute it is---as a nurse--to keep those programs open--not to go out and fight to get rid of them. More importantly, I will use passion in making my own opinion heard.

I want firefighters, EMTs, ex-corpsmen--ANYBODY who can demonstrate by exam and demonstration of previously learned skills-- to be able to continue to demonstrate their considerable skills and continue to be awarded advanced placement into whatever nursing program they choose--be it AA or BSN.

These talented people have too much to contribute--not just to the FUTURE of patient care, but to their fellow nursing students and even the instructors--to let it fall by the wayside.

Look to our own boards to see examples of this talent. There is an EMT who is planning on becoming an ER nurse eventually--he trained in the Navy--who is currently doing a travel EMT assignment in Saudi.

His screen name is Travis Lane, I believe--this young man's knowledge base and obvious skill level is phenomenal!! I certainly hope he is awarded advanced placement into any program he chooses--what an asset he will be to nursing! Nursing programs should be competing to GET students of this caliber.

I agree with wrmbrz, who said it so succinctly:

"...only one way to become a nurse and that was to take the test required to get your license. Who cares how you got there as long as you know your stuff and can pass the test."

Excellent example of critical thinking on the part of a future nurse--and one in an AA program, by golly!! Right on, brother or sister!

Time to go apply my own critical thinking skills to something I am actuallly getting paid for!

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